David: Well, I want to welcome everyone back to End the Seams and excited today to do what I think is a very important episode, very important topic, is I have two teenagers with me here today that struggle with chronic illness. One of them is my son, Micah Heflin, and also another young woman who goes to church with us and we've gotten to know her. Okay, and so very young to be dealing with these things but I think that's one of the things that we want to raise awareness about that there is no set age when these things can happen to you. They can happen to you at any age and think it'd be an interesting perspective to kind of hear what their life has been like and dealing with chronic illness, and so I'm very grateful for them being here to talk with us today. And so I'm just going to go back and forth between and let them talk to us about what their experience has been. And what I hope then will be insightful for people that are listening, maybe people that are older or parents that are going through this with their kids, but also for other teenagers that are having a similar experience, and so that they know that they're not alone in this. And I think that's an important thing that we want to say today. And so, I'm going to, I'll begin with Micah, and I just want Micah to tell us a little bit about your story, when your problems began and what happened next? Micah: Well, most of my problems didn't really start until around one and a half years ago. We were going to an event that our youth goes to, it's called Winterfest. And there I was fine for about three days. And though the kind of the climax where it tipped into this problem was just, I started to get, I got really sick. I had pretty high fever and I felt like kind of drained of all. And so after that I had to leave Winterfest early. We went back and there was just like pretty much a six-month period where we didn't really know what was going on. I would get sick and miss a lot of school and then I'd like be able to go back and then it would just kind of repeat itself and all the tests I went through came up negative and it was just really like a weird point in my life where I didn't think I was ever really going to figure out like what was wrong. Nobody could and that's when kind of when we went, when we went to the there's like my dad is always… a rheumatologist and from that point it was It was kind of like I thought that you know, I was gonna finally get my answer to like what was going on and they were like yeah, we didn't really get any markers for you, but we're gonna put you on this medication and that's just kind of where we went from that point and we've been working things out. Am I supposed to say what kind of condition I have? David: Well, yeah, you can let us know if you want to what you were eventually diagnosed with and I think our listeners will be curious to know too if you feel any better than you did back in those days when you were first struggling with the constant fevers and all of that. Oh yeah, well so basically I went on my first medication, it made my skin break out and eventually that kind of led to the conclusion that I had. David: Micah is trying to say psoriatic or serious. It is kind of a psoriatic arthritis, uh, and, for people that deal with that, if you have the psoriasis, you get a lot of, uh, bad skin breakouts. And if you got sometimes arthritis that goes with that, which can be very painful. Um, and then of course he's had other symptoms, as he mentioned with the fever, fatigue and just, just a lot, but how are you doing today? Like, how would you compare where you are today compared to where you were then? Micah: Well, I'd say that. Honestly, it got a lot better than it had been. I mean, today, I mean, still you got your daily pain, but I rarely ever have to skip school now for, well, not skip, but I rarely ever have to miss school for arthritic reasons. And I think I'm at a better place than I was for sure. David: Okay, well, thank you, Micah. Yeah, I think just looking back on that experience with you, obviously, witness that and what you were going through. And I think the missing school thing was a big deal for you and for all of us. And you would miss sometimes three, four days at a time. You'd go back for a while and miss. And I know that was a difficult time, especially, like you said, because we did not have a clear diagnosis. And that is one of the things that I feel like young and old alike, when you're dealing with autoimmune diseases, a clear diagnosis and sometimes you start a treatment plan before you know what the diagnosis is so that you can, it's kind of trial and error. And sometimes that lets you know maybe if that's really what's going on. So, I appreciate you sharing that. And, and Katum, I want to ask you basically the same thing, just a little bit about your story, how long you've been dealing with this and, you know, kind of what happened as the symptoms started and what did you find out in this process? Katum: So, I really started Looking back at it, my mom says that I had symptoms for a long time, but it never really became like the full-blown condition. Doctors say that usually lupus is really triggered by either trauma or prolonged stress. Ever since I was a kid, I've been very anxious. I've had a very bad immune system. There were days when I'd have... I had a fever for 20 plus days one time. And so, you know, there was just always like little things, but it was never really common enough to wear it was a big problem. And then during the summer, I went to Pettijohn, and great camp by the way, but I started having skin lesions or rashes. David: And- And this is this last summer? Katum: Yes. Okay. So it was pretty sudden. And so we went to the doctor, and they took a look at it, and they said, that's ringworm. So you just need to be aware of that. And so I went to Pettijohn, and I began taking medication. And it just wouldn't go away. It started worsening really bad. I got very anxious. I was in a lot of pain. And I just thought that, you know, I couldn't necessarily explain it. I just thought it was a really, really bad, maybe time mentally, and that was affecting me physically. But so the rash got worse and then I went back to the doctor. And this was after I went on a mission trip. And after being exposed to sunlight, that's what causes it. So we were able to figure out that. That's what it had been but she took a look at it and she said that's not any worm we think you have an autoimmune disease and then from there they did a test to see how to see if I had any markers and they said that my inflammation was on par of that of 70 year old. So Then I got put into a rheumatologist and from there I was able to find out that I have lupus that not only affects my joints and such, but it's also gotten to my neurological system. So mine affects the brain too. And so that was pretty hard. I had to get an MRI and that's not fun. It's kind of like in Avatar when they get those kids in the tanks, you know, it's pretty claustrophobic. So I was really nervous. but they have you in there for about 20 minutes and if you tap out, you have to go back in. So they have this thing that like. Bear through it. Yeah, it just braces your head. So you can't move a lot. But so I got that and I was having a lot of confusion and very bad headaches and just stuff like that. I one time lost vision on the left side of my body and I thought I was going to I could still see out of my right eye, but I lost vision on the left side, and then the right side of my body started violently shaking. And so they were like, we better, you know, figure out what that is. And through my MRI, they found out that I have a spot on the right side of my brain, and we have to do further testing just to see the extent of it. But, yeah. David: Okay. So that's where you are now, kind of in between the test. and having to do more testing. Have they been able to give you anything that helps you with your symptoms? Katum: So currently I take Plaquenil and that's helped me quite a bit with just my ability to get up and around. It was really hard to, I mean really just move in general when it came to before I had taken my Plaquenil. I remember there was days get out of bed in the morning and I would be up for like two hours and it would be 10 o'clock and I was like mom I gotta go lay down I can't stay up any longer and so yeah but the plaque when I was helped and we're going to the city to do some more tests on my brain. Okay and just for our listeners benefit that other places we just call Oklahoma City here, the city, because it's the only place that really you could call that in this area. We're up here in Northwest Oklahoma, which is pretty small. And often, I mean, just as an aside, but I think an important one, those of us dealing with chronic illnesses, autoimmune diseases, you can't find a doctor locally. You got to travel, which adds its own stress, time away from school, work, whatever the case may be, not to mention sometimes traveling itself can make things difficult. Let me stay with you for a minute. And, you know, obviously it's pretty extensive and I would imagine some life altering things that you're dealing with. And so just want you to comment if you could on how it's impacted your life or if there's been any major changes in your life, major kind of just adjustments, expectations of what you can do in life, kind of how has it impacted you in your school, in your daily life and all that. So when it came to the... is affecting my neurological system. I've always placed a lot of value on my academics and on my ability to complete tasks. And just, I'm involved in a bunch of clubs at my school for supply is very involved with almost anything. So I'm an officer in multiple things and such. And so going from being able to do so much to just having to and say I can't do that today, I can't drive right now, just stuff like that has been really hard especially when a lot of people depended on me for being there or being able to so every year I would decorate for the winter formal and physically I wasn't really able to do that this year But having people be able to rely on you for almost any physical task or any kind of thing to be completed to just having to tell so many people, I can't do that right now. That was really hard. Definitely very humbling. And then as well with the confusion and such. You have... It's hard to communicate sometimes and in your head, you know what you want to say and you know What you're thinking And not being able to get that out in a way that you think reflects uh your intelligence or What you're trying to say, it's definitely very frustrating, uh, there will be times when I’m at work and um I’ll get lost and uh of that be in conversation or just sometimes I just kind of don't realize what's happening or necessarily who people are. One time my chiropractor came in and he said hi to me and I talked to him for a bit but when he left I turned to one of my co-workers and I said I don't know who that was and then later when you have someone point out who that is that's your chiropractor who you've known for four years you know you just kind of have that moment of I know that I am smart or you feel that you are smart and you almost feel Misrepresented because you just think I know these things sure this is something that I Should know that I have known and sometimes my co-workers will give me grief because I get confused in conversations and so I just don't I just don't know what is happening can't understand what is being said. And so I have a coworker who I guess can realize when it's happening, because I think I make a face. I think I get like a little bit glazed over when it's happening. And so he'll come and he'll tell me like, this is what was said, this is what that means. Like this is why they're laughing. Or specifically, we got locked out last night of the theater. And opened my phone to call my manager to ask her to let me in but I opened my phone and I just was looking down at it because I couldn't remember why I had opened it and so he was like you're calling the manager so we can get let inside and I'm like oh okay so it's definitely I've had to ask for a lot more help yeah and that's been really hard because everyone needs help and I we hold ourselves to a different standard than what we hold others, because I would never judge someone for needing help, or for, I know if someone else was to have my condition, I would never shame them, or be like, oh, they're acting in a way that makes them seem unintelligent, like I would never think that, but when it's you, it's different. David: Yeah, harder on yourself, yeah, and I mean, what you're describing, sounds a whole lot like what people call brain fog, you know, and there's, and I know what that's like. I think a lot of people with chronic illness does, and it can be frustrating because you can be right in the middle of something, like you just talked about with the phone, you know, and it just kind of drops out of your head, you know, and but I'm sorry that you've had to go through that, and I want to talk in a moment, I'm gonna come back to you, talk a little bit about just sort of the impact on our social relationships, but I want to give Micah a chance to speak to some of this, as well as to some of the changes that you've experienced because of chronic illness. Well... Well, I can think of one significant thing. I know you had to give up. Micah: Oh, yeah. So I used to be in a band. Um, I was on the drum line for, uh, the high school in Woodward, Oklahoma. And I had done that for two years and it really became like a main focal point of my life and, um, originally I would just like, you know, I'd always need to put my instrument down earlier in the same year that I was diagnosed with arthritis. But I had just done that and people were like, Hey, why are you putting your instrument down? and you can hold it for longer and stuff. And I didn't really understand why. I just kind of felt like I needed to tough it out and stuff. But when I was diagnosed, I came for tryouts, and I couldn't play the instrument anymore because the pain in my hands and just like basically the vibrations of the stick and the grip needed to hang on to those mallets pretty much made it excruciatingly painful to play anymore. And so. I eventually just had to give up on that really. And but I mean it did open up some other opportunities in my life. I began taking a multimedia class in the VOTEC that I wouldn't have been able to before because it's just time and stuff like that. I guess part of that also just going along with that is just kind of basically realizing that I can't do things as well or as quickly much as other people. And so sometimes I just have to recognize when it's too much for me. And part of that just really with working too, I won't be able to, like I'm not able to work as many hours as people and it's kind of something that I just have to kind of accept as just how it is now. And I think... That's also led to me being a lot more patient as well. David: Yeah, and should mention too, as Micah mentioned, that, you know, he's working. He's going to school. He's very involved in his church. It's true for Katum as well. Uh, the responsibilities, many of them are still there. You maybe can't do as much as you would like or as you used to. Um, but it's not like you guys just, you know, dropped out of school and are at home all day. I mean, you still have to function and a lot of times the energy is not there. I'm sure. And you, and pushing through that is, I know, difficult and also, you know, and again, I told Micah before we started this, I wasn't really recording this as, you know, the perspective of the father of someone with chronic illness, but of course I am his father. And so I know we've learned how to communicate better sometimes about when things are overwhelming for him and he's got to tell us that. And then I've got to hear that also as a person who has chronic illness that, you know, I feel like I ought to be able to understand that. And you know, there's a lot of adjustments just in the family dynamics early on, I think, learning about that. You know, Micah, you didn't mention it, but I know, you know, your appetite's been pretty severely affected by the medicine. Okay, you want to speak to that? Micah: Yeah, so, I, so right now I weigh around 150 pounds. Before I started taking medicine, it was the same one that Katum is taking now. It's called Plaquenil, and that's also the one that made my skin break out. But before that, Plaquenil is also, it limits your appetite. I'm sure Katum knows that as much as I do. And I started like, I just wasn't hungry anymore. I started skipping meals. I would just stay in my room. I mean, and I just never had the will to eat. I never really thought about it because I just wasn't hungry. And eventually I started to lose. Basically I lost a lot of muscle mass, dropped to around 28 pounds. And it wasn't really, and I had no idea until. you know, my mom was like, hey, you look skinny. Like you're you look skinnier and like then that's when I like weighed myself and realized that like basically lost like 10% of my body over the course of like the first three months that I had been diagnosed with arthritis and it was really shocking to me just to see like what an impact this has already made on me in such a short time. I've since gone off plaque one ill and that's helped my appetite more I mean, I've mainly just been working it into like a routine instead of like deciding when I'm hungry I basically have to set a time that I need to go eat because I have to eat twice to take my medicine anyways So I mean just having a schedule like that helps a lot You know all these things your appetite energy Not wanting to let people down. David: I mean, these are a lot of things that I think I want people to understand it's stuff that you guys are young and we think, oh, you guys shouldn't have to go through those sorts of things. And yet, chronic illness and autoimmune diseases and all that is indiscriminate. You know, it doesn't care who you are. It doesn't care ultimately how old you are. My problems didn't start really for me until I was in my 30s. So I had a very different experience than you guys, you know. So it's hard for me even to think, okay, what would it be like to be a teenager when you're in the prime of your life and a lot of your friends are too, right? And they're out wanting to do stuff and you can't do stuff with them all the time or you got to bow out of something. I mean, these are difficult consequences to having chronic illness. And I wanted to talk to that for just a moment or speak to that for a moment and just curious if you've experienced empathy from your friends and your peers. Do people get it? Do people not get it? And you know, and really, I realize it can be hard for people to get it if they've not experienced it, but what's been your experience with your peers? And I also want you to think about that in relation to adults in your life too. Have they been able to be understanding or do they just assume, well, you're young, you shouldn't be having this problem. And Micah, I'll stay with you for it. Micah: Well, that's definitely something I've noticed, like a change in just in the first, I mean, because I mean, I used to be on the drum line, like I was, I was marching several miles every day carrying a heavy instrument and really just being able to do things like that. I was, I was working before actually the one, the first job I ever had, I had to quit because of my arthritis. And that's just when I was sick too much to work. that yeah that's right and yeah most most the time like friends who know me and like no no you and no like kind of the family history of arthritis and chronic illness can understand like what has happened and what what has taken place but when it comes to just like people you know I it kind of it feels kind of embarrassing to talk about it to like just people I don't know is you You know, like, you know, they don't they don't really care that much you know, it's like not that important to bring up like I can just do it and just be fine and I Mean people that I have told, you know, I mean, I'm kind of confused on like the reaction sometimes Because it's like, I don't really know if they're like, oh, okay. Because they don't really understand as much as we all would. David: Sure. Well, thank you. And, Katum, I want to ask you the same thing, and just kind of reflecting on the impact this has had on your relationships or the understanding that you feel like you've received or not received in some cases. And, you know, I know we've got local people who are going to be listening to this, and I'm not asking you to throw anyone under the bus. I'm just saying in kind of in general, you know, kind of what that experience has been like for you. Katum: So something that Micah said that I really wanted to like speak further on. the kind of embarrassment. And it's like, you know, if someone else had told you that, you would not be like, oh my gosh, that's embarrassing. But when it's you, it feels like, is this coming off in a way that's attention seeking? Is this coming off in a way that's an excuse? And a lot of people who don't necessarily know the full extent of your condition, who might never have heard of lupus or maybe don't necessarily know Arthritis is I mean I've had plenty of people tell me that You know I have the Sun sensitivity thing so the Sun causes something akin to an allergic reaction and where my body will Start having rashes and stuff and some people have told me straight up that that's not true and It's kind of hard to be like It is Yeah, cuz they happen to me There's a lot of Twilight jokes Definitely. I've been called Edward Cullen a bit, but you know there's some humor in it too. And another thing that's really hard, I think just for people who might be listening, who have autoimmune disease or any kind of chronic illness, is the way it affects your appearance. Because having people come up and say that you look worse, that's pretty hard. It is. specifically with lupus sometimes you have hair loss and I think that's kind of I think talking about insecurities that come from that sort of thing is a little bit Taboo because no one wants to come off as vain or no one really wants to admit that that's a that's something that affects them but even if you look into psychology and stuff your appearance is it shouldn't be but it is tied a lot into your identity and And so when there can be a lot of changes to that, it can cause a lot of anxiety and stuff. But I've had a lot of people come up to me and tell me I look sick or I've lost a lot of weight when I went on Plaquano. I did. I weighed 90 pounds for a bit. And so as a 17-year-old, you know, that's kind of hard. And some people. definitely respect it. I have a friend, my coworker, Adam, and he's incredibly accommodating. Like I'll tell him that I can't drive right now, so he'll be like, let me meet you there and I'll just drive us. Or when I do not understand in conversations, he's usually able to like, you know, tell me like, okay, this is what happened. This is why they're laughing. You kind of were out for a bit, but like this is what it was. think that maybe you're like exaggerating your condition because you're so young. So especially when I tell people that I have arthritis, I don't like to say it a lot because I do think it can come off as an excuse because I am young so I know many people don't expect me to. But I've had people tell me that they've laughed at that and they've been like no you don't. Wow. Or even even older people especially because I think sometimes they can think it's sarcasm and such, but like sarcasm on your part. Yeah, like I like when I'm like, yeah. And so it's definitely it can be hard. Some people are, you know, they really shine because of their ability to just make sure to be welcoming and kind. And then some people just maybe don't fully understand. So they just don't. and react in the same way. But you know, everyone, I think it's a teaching moment for both parties. David: Sure. Well, sounds like Adam is a pretty good example for people to follow. It isn't helpful, go Adam, yeah. It's not helpful to have someone come up and say, oh, you just look so tired today, or you look sick, or yeah, those are not helpful comments. I'm saying that for people that might be listening that you got people in your life have chronic illness or it's a real struggle for them sometimes to get out of bed and just go about normal things with life if they can at all and sometimes those comments can hurt and I think it's good to raise you know awareness about that and I think like you said though if when we're at our best talking about those with chronic illness we can kind of approach it as a teaching moment for like you talked about for everyone involved and not become too bitter but yeah when someone just flat-out says to you well that's not true or that's not Yeah, that's not very helpful at all. And it makes it difficult to communicate with that mentality, I think. Let's talk about another relationship. I know that God is important to both of you. And I know you obviously, Micah, not only from being your father, but in a church context, as well as that's where I got to know Katum as well and your connections to the youth group here. So, obviously something like this, God being involved in every aspect of our life, well, then this is something that's gonna have an impact on our relationship with God. And there can be some things that are challenging to that relationship, some things maybe that we can have a deeper relationship with God, but there's a process you have to go through. And so I'm rambling more than I intend to on that. I just basically trying to preface this to say that I understand that you're still in the middle of a journey. In fact, maybe still early in a journey in some respects. But I did wanna ask God has been impacted in any way, and maybe closely related to that, just kind of what you're learning about God in this experience, or your walk with God in this experience. And, Katum, I think we're still on you, and so I'll let you go first. Katum: So, definitely, through my diagnosis, I had a pretty eventful August, and then that was about the time when they started saying, chronic illness and then my senior year was starting and just some other difficult events but it's really I got baptized because of it, so I definitely realized that, you know, I think... I think there's hard times and you can either grow from them and just be like, whatever happens I know that I just have to have faith in God or you can, some people do the complete opposite and they just try and take it all, like control all of it and I think that that's definitely very hard. I I think there's a little bit of a struggle with knowing that God has a plan and that includes your struggles in his plan, that that's also a part of it. And, you know, there's a lot of questions that we as Christians just have to come to terms with. We might not ever fully grasp, but it can be hard to come to terms with the fact sometimes that, you know, that you having a chronic illness could be a part of God's plan. And I was talking to someone once and he didn't have a chronic illness. But he told me that God didn't give me lupus. God allowed me to have it. And at first, in my head, I'm like. That doesn't feel that nice. Yeah. But I was able to really reflect on that some more and realize that as many in life, you are guaranteed to have hard days. This is whether you're a Christian or not. And on the days when I can fall back on my faith and on my relationship with God, those are so much easier than the days I can't. And if I am a vessel for God, then I just have to be accepting of all the opportunities that he gives me, including being someone with a chronic illness. So if that in any way benefits my ministry, or I know it's definitely benefited my relationship with God, I've had to come much closer to him and I've had to realize that, you know, I think there's a lot of like, I think the culture really like pushes that you are almost and so you're kind of in control. And then, you know, having to realize that you are just going through life, life isn't going through you. And so you just have to come to terms with it. And I definitely think I'm a lot more peaceful and I'm a lot more thankful. And I'm blessed to be in a position where my parents can afford to get me the medication I need. And I have a lovely church family. who have been willing to listen to me, share some of the harder struggles. And I think it's hard to own up to when you're angry with God because we all know we shouldn't be. But I think that's definitely a real problem that a lot of people face. And I think if we're to ignore that, then other people who might be going through it might just try and ignore it as well. But I think it's just coming to terms with the fact that blessing. David: Okay, thank you for sharing that. Micah, I want to ask you along the same lines on that, if it's impacted your relationship with God or how you view your relationship with God in any way, if you could speak to that for us. Micah: Well, definitely at first, I was mostly just asking questions. Like, I was just very confused as to why, like, you know, like, why did this happen? Why did it this would one day be a problem given, you know, your problems and how they've affected you throughout life. But for it to come and like kind of just like hit me on my blind side so early in life and just kind of like having that thought resonating in the back of your head that, you know, like this would be something that will likely affect you throughout your entire life. And obviously that just led to me having some questions like maybe even being a little doubtful in my faith at times, and it can, like, how could this be just something that's allowed, how can this be something that God allows? And I think over time, I just kind of, I came to a point where I just kind of had to, instead of just being, like lamenting the fact that this happened to, in a way, come to an understanding wouldn't be a problem. Like one day through God, I wouldn't have to live like this and I could you know one day be restored I guess to my full capabilities and I think definitely through God I was able to come to a closer understanding of myself and of the relationship I have with him. I hadn't been reading my Bible as much as I had been before chronic illness. Whether that be a result of just having other things to do than be so physically active and other things like that, but yeah. David: And I'll mention that you know since I'm at least close to what's going on in your lives, obviously more in something that the youth group did for you recently, you know, with the, at the Bowling Alley, you know, and so I'll come back to that in a minute. But I was going to mention for Micah, too, just, you know, they have a really strong guys' accountability group within the youth group. And, and so I know that isn't because they have chronic illness, but yet you have a support network. But you got people that got your back. And I would think that that is something that is helpful in any kind of struggle. And I know you're going to be sharing some about that with our church here soon on a Wednesday night and looking forward to hearing about that. Yes, so did I have that right that the youth group did some kind of surprise for you or something for you at the bowling alley? Katum: Yes, they got me a, my brain is going blank on what the word for it is called now, a daily devotional. So, they got me a daily devotional and some pens, and they all signed a card. study has really been incredibly impactful in my relationship with God especially because before I had really come to the Church of Christ I was I'd say I was a lot less involved with Go ahead, go ahead. I'm sorry. I was a lot less involved, I'd say, with my faith, but through weekly visits and talks with the girls, I was able to find really people who were incredibly understanding and kind. And there would be times when I couldn't make it to Bible study, and that would be a little bit... because you feel bad for not being able to make it to church events because I think you know the devil preys on your weaknesses and your anxieties and he can tell you that you're prioritizing yourself or that you're committing sloth because like currently you can't drive or you can't get up and you know that it might be dangerous for you to be driving at night so you can't make it to the Bible study but I they would always be like no you know everything happens for a reason. We're praying for you. We missed you at Bible Study today. We hope to see you next week. If they saw me at church, then they were always incredibly kind. They got me some pens. Miss Allie, who is the leader really of our girls Bible study, but it's a little bit of a collaborative because I think a lot of people are really, a lot of amazing women are really involved in it. But they, she was like, good pens always she got me some good pens and that was really nice. But just definitely very thankful for them. David: Yeah, I appreciate just knowing, it helps me feel good that you guys have some people in your corner, obviously people of faith. And I know that's something we don't wanna take for granted because sometimes with chronic illness, chronic pain, it can become such an isolating experience and cause us to be more and more alone. And you know, along this kind of lines Are there things that you have thought along your journey that you wish had been more available to you or something that would make the journey easier for you? And I'm thinking particularly along the lines of some kind of spiritual support in that. And actually, I think I was still on Micah for this part, but has there been anything like that? And anyway, you could, you might, if you don't have anything, that's okay. But I just, I'm asking this partly for me, as someone who is leading a nonprofit ministry for people with chronic illness, I'm always wondering, okay, what kind of tools, resources, you know, support networks and things could be made available that would help people through the struggle? And our focus so far has not really been on teenagers, but I do expect that in the future that there will be a little bit more emphasis as part of why we're doing what we're doing today. And so, any thoughts on that, Micah? Micah: I've mentioned this before but I have an accountability group where I meet with the boys that are the same my age and my youth group every Wednesday and we just kind of go over our struggles and our… and just kind of we help each other get better and we pray for each other and just support one another as we go out through each week and I think especially at the beginning having something like that, some kind of support group of people that just know you and love you really really important and if I would have had that I mean I think it would have been so much easier Especially at the beginning when I was asking all these questions and doubting my faith At times and I think especially along those lines would be Incredibly important for anybody that was going through the same thing. I had been okay. David: Thank you. Katum, what about you? Katum: I definitely think support groups help, just like Micah said, having people around you that you're just able to be completely honest with, especially in those hard times. And with some of those hard questions, you know, I think it's really hard to ask those things and to own up to the fact that you might be having doubts or that you might be having negative feelings because we know how we're supposed to act and sometimes how we're supposed to isn't what we feel. Right. And so, I think it's really beneficial to just have people there and to make sure that you're reaching out because I think that a diagnosis can be a very isolating time and I think if you really don't reach out then you never get to really just connect with others in a way that I think really could help. David: Yeah and you know I think there are some things focused a little bit on teenagers. I know Micah, you're familiar with Diamond's Conference. I got you the book from...oh, her name's gonna slip my mind, and she's gonna listen to this probably. And I've got... it's Sarah Willoughby, I think is her name, wrote the devotional book. She also has a conference...and her ministry is not just about teenagers, but she started as a person in ministry with chronic illness. And so, I was gonna say, you know, that would be something...as far our listeners, to, if you guys can just Google “Diamonds Conference Chronic Illness” or something like that. There are all kinds of speakers and things that they've had in the past you can listen to and resources there that I think are really good. I think for Broken and Mended, I'd like for us to, you know, eventually have, you know, some kind of support group guide that people could work through together with other teenagers, you know, maybe even a teenage facilitator or something like that. And so, I hope that's in the future for what we're doing with Broken and Mended, I think it's important. And in some ways it might be more important for teenagers because I think it's possible you guys could even feel more alone in this. Because although I would think the problem is more pervasive than what we might think, you know, there's, you guys probably know others that have some kind of chronic illness in your schools. And, you know, and so obviously as you get older you're going to have more people have more illnesses, you know, kind of come up. But I still think there's a lot more of it than what people realize. People are dealing with things. Arthritis, lupus, any number of things. Let me close by asking just kind of final question here. What makes you anxious about the future? What makes you hopeful? So kind of two sides there of that coin. And Katum, I'll let you start with that one. Katum: So this next year, I'll be going off to college. And I definitely have some anxiety about. I've only ever gone to one school and am largest class had like 16 kids. So just being in a new environment is very nerve wracking, but especially with it, with being someone with chronic illness, being so new, having to navigate how to really tell more people about some of the limitations I might have. I think that's really hard. As well as... a lot of, I think there's a lot of fear that I might miss out on certain opportunities because of said limitations, but something that makes me hopeful is, so with my diagnosis being something that was beneficial to you and all the opportunities it provided, I had been going to health careers and I had wanted to be a vet. I think animals are incredibly for them. But after I got my diagnosis, I was very sure that that was God's green light for me to be a pharmacist because I was going to... I had always kind of had it brought up to me, but I just never really felt like it was my calling. And so then once I had received medication that just helped me get out of bed in the morning, you know, I really thought, you know, I think this is... I think this is a sign from God that this is where I'm supposed to be. be going. So, it's opened a lot of doors. Like I said, my faith has definitely benefited, but I'm going to SWOSU, which has a Bulldogs for Christ, as well as a Christian Pharmacy Association. I've been able to talk with many people, you know, in pharmacy about how much it benefits people with chronic illness. It's just, it's definitely affected a lot of the people who I can talk to because, well, it happens to a lot of people. It's not necessarily rare to have a chronic illness. I think it can give you a little bit of a unique perspective. And so being able to say, yes, I faced this, but this is what I benefit by doing or this is how it's affected me and here's the positives of that, help people who are struggling with stuff. So, very hopeful. I'm very thankful for all of the challenges I've ever faced because without them I wouldn't be where I am or who I am. And I look forward to the future challenges I'll overcome. David: Okay, thank you very much. And SWOSU for our listeners is Southwestern Oklahoma State University. And I just appreciate you being able to speak to finding kind of, I'm trying to think of the right word, paths of purpose, you know, in what you're going through and that you can see that even in forming your career choice and God at work in that. And I think that's very powerful testimony, not to mention the increasing empathy that you have been given because of your struggle, which I always think is a really big deal for anyone going with chronic illness. For those of us who are Christians, while we can certainly have our own struggles with our faith, you know, why are we going through this? quickly realize that we'll be able to help some others and speak into some other people's lives because of what we've experienced in and we want to be used by God in that way and so I appreciate you speaking to that. So Micah, I'll let you kind of you get the final say so to speak and so what makes you anxious about the future? What is something that makes you hopeful? Micah: Well not to be a copycat or anything but I would say the future is definitely something I've been in because increasingly getting a lot closer than I've realized. College is under two years away at this point, and I'll be 18 in less than a year, and it's kind of like a snowball effect of anxiety and stuff like that. I really think that God, I'm certain that God gave me arthritis for a reason, and whether that's taking a role in the future in your own ministry, or finding some other way for me to glorify God's name and find other people who are just like me that need God in their lives. I can't even imagine people that have arthritis or lupus or any other kind of chronic illness that are going through this without knowing God. And I think just the thought of someone else like that really makes me wanna do something like that myself. And, you know, that gives me kind of a reason to want to go out. And I think that that's really important for us to remember and believe. David: Well, I want to thank you both. I know we are getting close to an hour that we've been on, but I think if people have listened to us to this far in, I think they will agree this has been very worthwhile and hopefully eye-opening. Certainly, ask our listeners out there to pray for Katum and pray for Micah. Pray for others in your life that have chronic illness. And a lot of people that are listening to this, of course, do have chronic illness. That's part of the reason why they, you know, they're listening, listen to it. But we'll have opportunities. through this effort to share it with more people, and I think a lot of people that would just be interested in your story, that will be listening to this as well. And so, I think here's at least one small sliver of kind of where we can see, you know, got it, got it worked through what you're going through, that we can speak to this. And now maybe if one person listens to this and feels, yeah, I'm not alone, I'm not the only one having these experiences, you know, that there are people out there that get what I'm going through and, you know, and yet are holding onto their faith in their faith. I think that's going to be something that's very encouraging to them. So, thank you very much both of you for being on the show. And you know, I just certainly hope that as you live your life with the purpose and the pain that you're going through, I also hope that you have moments of reprieve and relief and maybe one day even in the future healing from what you're going through. I know that's another hard thing. It's like, do I pray for healing? You know, but, pray for healing, you know, that's a whole other topic we could get into and that sort of thing. But we never know what's going to happen on the medical front in the future, and certainly God is not limited either way. But in the meantime, I hope that your days ahead or at least you're able to live them with a sense of purpose and joy in your life. So, thank you for being with us and for those of you that are listening, thank you for listening. And please remember, if you're not already on the website, go to brokenandmended.org for more information about this ministry. All right, until next time.