the circular economy really relies on maintaining the material quality for reusing using the things for longer so this Trends are pushing more responsibility on the producer because they have to incentivize and they need to make sure that the material is more durable is longer lasting
accreditation is a way of life one of the actions that organizations are taking is to focus on issues of pressing importance

and what the customers really want out of their accredited certification

I believe we have an impact on every day's life

It’s important to be inclusive it is important reality to be open

and that will be one additional way to ensure that the voice of industry and user is heard and recognized

Hello everybody and I take this opportunity to welcome you all to this podcast session on the aspect of circular economy. And it gives me an immense pleasure as we have two stalwarts in this area joining us today for this podcast. When we talk about circular economy, as we all know it is an alternative to highly extractive and resource intensive linear economy principle which replaces the end of life concept with three Rs concept and focuses on the usage of selection of materials, products, processes for waste elimination. It aims at retaining value of resources, products and materials by using them as long as possible and minimizing the wastage of the life cycles and at each life cycle stage. And there is no denying that the implementation of circular economy approaches can in fact lead to material cost savings and increase the profits. So when we look at the global communities stand it is nothing but for the economic growth which comes at an ecological cost there is a need that we introduce this concept of circular economy so that we have a potential to provide new opportunities for trade and create jobs. As well as the global corporations are expanding I would like to emphasize that TIC sector and the accreditation community plays a critical role in positioning at the center to facilitate this transition to circular economy which requires the role of TIC sector standards, accreditation community, different stakeholders in this whole ecosystem so that these sectors can contribute as an independent third party to verify the circular economy claims made by the manufacturing companies as well as instill trust among the relevant stakeholders. With this introduction, I have the pleasure to introduce to you my two distinct best guests today in the podcast, Dr. Bernardo Calzadilla-Sarmiento and Ms. Stephanie Vehring. Just a short introduction about Dr Bernardo, he's a director of division of Fair Production

Sustainability Standards and Trade of directorate of SDG Innovation and Economic Transformation at UNIDO. He has been the managing director of directorate of Digitalization, Technology 

and Agri-Business and director of Department of Digitalization Technology and Innovation at UNIDO, an experienced manager and a global leader managing 700 staff internationally, but more than 30 years of international experience also in the area of sustainable development and innovation as well as in global development his involvement includes working in different parts of the world some of them being Asia, Africa, Latin America. Dr Bernardo has held position in investment Promotion, funds mobilization, and social Responsibility. PhD in economics from Vienna University of Economics and Business Austria. Can you please let us know that what are the contributions and actions by UNIDO in the area of circular economy? Thank you so much to for having me here, talking from UNIDO the United Nations Industrial Development Organization, we look at in the area of industrial developments of three specific megatrends. Namely you mentioned the exponential digital transformation, the shift from a more social environmental responsibility approach that was voluntary to more mandatory system and yes, it is about the quest for achieving the net zero paradigm, 
zero emissions and the energy transitions. So the production use and eventual disposal of materials, industrial materials, such as Steel, plastics, aluminium, cement, account for a quarter of all global CO2 emissions. So we need to give the net zero paradigm  
a chance. Countries/businesses we need to advance the circular economy which is a powerful instrument and the principles within to optimize the use and the reuse of the materials. You mentioned what is the circular economy so let me go straight forward to what we're doing, many UNIDO member states are preparing and the creating legislative processes to adapt laws and we are supporting them in analytical and policy advice. So it includes for example in Uruguay we have this sustainable circular economy law and we have also been doing this in partnership with the PAGE, the Partnership for Action on Green Economy and UNIDO. We have a more concrete program at a lower Level, this means meso and micro level, Global Eco-Industrial Parks Program and this we are implementing together with Switzerland and we are helping the to integrate industrial circularity into laws regulations but also into the parks and also we are working in inter-ministerial groups and this leads us to consensus building, coordination, standardization, we are part of the standardization process that is happening in ISO in TC 323 and we have been also, at the national Level, helping in the establishment of national standards for circular economy. One good case is in Egypt we have been developing together with the authorities there a standard for the bioeconomy. The partnerships for us play a very important role and this is why we have been organizing a number of consultations on the circular economy which is a dialogue with the member states to exchange best practices, facilitate global discussions and here also we have been starting to introduce the topic of accreditation, conformity assessment, certification and the link to our quality infrastructure topic. Also I would like to mention we are founding member of the Global Alliance on Circular Economy and Resource Efficiency and we launched this coalition in Latin America. We're working also in best practices for SMEs and our technical cooperation programs and in the switch to the circular economy value chain and this I would still like to emphasize we are working on electronics textile garments and plastic because you introduce and you really make the circular economy happen when you go down to the production level to where the production is happening so that you can apply the practices. So we we're starting from the policy level through strengthening the institutional and the partnership to what the economic practices. These are just some examples of what UNIDO is working in relation to the circular economy, thank you. Thank you Dr Bernardo. I see a vast area of activities which UNIDO is into like from product supporting in the area of standards to the conformity assessment network to supporting the Global Alliance and the circular economy as well as supporting the industry, so which is in fact we see that there's a lot of activity proactively being done by UNIDO and there is active stakeholder cooperation in collaboration which you're undertaking. Now that you've mentioned the aspect of participation in ISO 323 as well as participation on the standards development, I take this opportunity to introduce to you Stephanie Vehring, a biophysicist by educational qualification. Stephanie has experience working in different standards body in Germany as well as globally which includes DIN, German Institute of Standardization BMWi, Federal Ministry of Economic Technology VdTÜV, TÜV e.V etc. and she's very actively involved in the standardization level at the ISO as well as CASCO level, participating as convener as well as expert in various working group which include ISO/IEC 17029, ISO/IEC 17030. She's a convener of Strategic Alliance and Regulatory Group which is a STAR group member of Technical Interface Group. 

She's also been the chair at CEN-CENELEC for the criteria for conformity assessment bodies. So looking into the vast experience which she has on the aspect of standards, and as Dr Bernardo mentioned, that standards in relation to circular economy have a very important role my question to you would be, as ISO/CASCO STAR chair, can you please update us on the standards CASCO is developing on this important topic related to circular economy. Yes gladly, thank you Aparna and thank you for allowing to broadcast what we do at CASCO. Well first of all, the classical standards are generic and intended to be all-purpose instruments to assess and confirm the fulfillment of requirements. And that applies, to begin with, to all kinds of requirements including those that are relevant or become relevant for the circular economy and there you could also think of a full range of tangible, technical specifications for material compositions, for particular operational Modes, for processes, as well as rather environmental conditions that are needed for instance when managing supply chains in a circular manner, and last but not least general expectations that come with the idea of a circular economy and that could be that things are actually repairable or that recycling is indeed feasible and the latest instrument to this very generic toolbox CASCO developed is relating to requirements regarding reliable information. We found that this becomes more and more and particularly in the circular economy and sustainability area the traded goods to rely upon and in that regards this new CASCO standards defines the assessment bodies who are confirming given data and information but it doesn't really end there, the generic provision might but as standardization works usually hand and glove with the real-life development and market needs we're currently discussing whether more guidance on applying this new type of assessment that is validation and verification of claims of data and information is needed and should be provided by CASCO. So that's what we have and that's what we are currently discussing to potentially develop and within the STAR group you mentioned a policy group of CASCO or just not necessarily, or not at all indeed, develop standards but where industry and regulators meet and openly discuss in a platform round forum kind of setup what's needed and where conformity assessment needs, market needs, and consumer needs and industry needs. There we took the broader angle of the application of all types of conformity assessment that is not only the latest development in validation and verification but as well the long-standing testing and inspection and certification tools to circular 
economy and find use cases explanations highlights model situations where conformity assessment could contribute to build the trusts that the things are actually what they are supposed to need to be, which is needed in any setup and in the circular economy just being one very prominent example. So this is what we do in general and in in that STAR group in particular to enhance knowledge base awareness meet stakeholders and highlight the opportunities conformity assessment can provide for those who have to make decisions and by decisions I mean all of them, those the governments, the regulators have to take when setting the rules, those investors would make when deciding to spill money into particular economic sectors or areas, and finally you and me when standing at the shelf being a consumer and deciding what to buy and how to consume.

Yeah thank you Stephanie for giving that input that the STAR group

is it's like the industry as well as the regulators and the other stakeholders meeting together to apply the concept of conformity assessment the different standards related to the circular economy, which is quite interesting actually to learn, but can I also, I as you know and as we understand that ISO is also working on a technical committee which is ISO/TC 323, so can you please elaborate on the work and the purpose it intends to achieve?

Yes certainly, so a real technical committee like the technical committee 323 on circular economy is a platform to debate to actually standardize and define characteristics as well as needs and expectations that could then eventually serve as specifications when subjecting it to a conformity assessment and in that such sector standardization is a little different from the generic tool making workshop and the policy group CASCO could be considered as, however that TC 323 is quite horizontal, circularity is sought in so many areas or sectors you could think of individually repaired or refurbished consumer gadgets to waste and turning waste into energy and TC 323 really aims at this very big picture they intend to tackle it all in once, very bravely, the fundamentals, the principles of circularity of circular economy, means of transitioning of getting there of moving towards a more circular approach to economic supply chains for instance, and the assessment so the assessability of circularity is the last bits they take into account and as I said this approach is certainly ambitious but to me it's sensible since I think we do need to define a common understanding of circularity, to define indicators, find criteria what we understand as circularity, how we could evaluate it and secondly, we would need these procedures they are essential to get there and while getting there while transitioning we would need to agree upon benchmarks and milestones and standardization is a brilliant platform and tool to do that and finally and that comes from the conformity assessment perspective we would need to measure, we would need to quantify, we would need to judge these achievements and this would be one application of conformity assessment in that area and that would not only apply to the now perhaps newly specified aspects of circularity but also to our evergreens such as safety or or being free from hazards because just being recycled or refurbished do’sn't mean that a material or a product could now be less safe for the use and the consumer and so the idea is to have it all at once, not to trade safety for instance for the new circularity and to structure this and specify this through standardization so that's what this TC 323 undertakes and and commits to achieve. 
Yes Stephanie as you rightly said it's a very ambitious plan but then there is a need that we assess the circularity part of it and there is a need that we define a common understanding related to circularity considering the new concept and of course measure unless you don't measure and you don't define things you don't know what actually is happening. So as we understand that the circular economy works on three principles design out waste and pollution, keep products and materials in use, and regenerate the natural Systems. Now when we consider these principles Dr Bernardo can you please share your views as to how the conformity assessment practices will have its application across these principles and of course the wide range of sectors which we will have to target? 
Thank you, let's look at a bit wider not only conformity assessment but we consider that we need a strong and a robust and fit for purpose quality infrastructure system so we need the functioning and the operational work of all the quality infrastructure system to transition and to support the circular economy. So we need the quality infrastructure but we need the policies we mentioned before, we need the regulatory framework, we need standardization, we discussed it already and we need metrology and here we are thinking about measurement also a bit different of what was just discussed but metrology is fundamental for everything’it's fundamental for keeping the architecture of the QIs together, accreditation fundamental we have so many new schemes we need a new certification process who accredits who certifies all these new so their need is undeniable. So QI and each of these pillars play a key role in supporting the research of new materials on products, developing innovative technologies, and determining reliable and comparably the environmental impact of production and consumption. So as I mentioned before standards can play a fundamental role. I think we heard about the CASCO standards that they play a fundamental role in monitoring enforcing of government mandates on in relation to let's say loss of biodiversity, loss of the quality of soil, air and water along the value chain and similar challenges. So when we dive deeper we can also visualize better what we are going to measure. In industry, the CASCO and conformity assessment standard, they build the architecture they built the confidence to demonstrate the compliance to the regulation of the circular economy including what we see coming more and more which is the mandatory social and environmental due diligence because this is part of a broader sustainability understanding, So the adoption of this standards can also help the private sector in in being more responsible in countering planned obsolescence also countering fraud, countering counterfeiting, all these problems are part of what the quality infrastructure system can be utilized but also to have the goods at a reasonable price, repairing including reusing requires also an economic efficiency. Finally 
also moving to the next level from standards to the services the conformity assessment services 
are fundamental to bring forward the economy we need to create a link between technical standards product services processes in the real life. So we have an example Echo design approaches aiming to support circular project products they have to be captured first in standards in definition models and criteria but then we need to establish test methods, conformity assessment frameworks
to evaluate the material energy water footprint and then we can start talking about how these products are becoming circular and then we need also clarity on communication and reporting
about the various contents. So the circular economy relies also on the use of secondary raw materials but how are we making sure that we are recovering through recycling these materials and that they are of good quality? The properties and test methods should also define the characteristics of the secondary raw materials to support thorough information and trust. So this is also done with the support of conformity assessment mechanism or schemes for this type of material and the establishment of the necessary conformity assessment capacities to transition from conventional production to these environmental practices has to be also adjusted and adapted especially in developing countries where we are still facing a lack of understanding of this new concept. Let me just mention UNIDO has been very active in the area for example in South Africa in the developing country we have helped the establishment of the first ever accredited national biodegradation testing laboratory so we have had to lead the transition not to say the work that we also do together in one framework with ILAC with the IAF which is accreditation of conformity assessment bodies, of laboratories 
etc. but here we have created this new testing facility to verify the biodegradability of claims on imported and locally produced material so that we can promote biodegradable world markets. So this is something very innovative very important that leads us to increase the capacities to evaluate the environmental aspect of using different materials. UNIDO has also provided similar services in Tunisia for example in technical centers where we are working with the related quality and laboratory testing and working also with training the expertise at advisory service and underpinning best practice in conformity assessment. I would like to leave it there.

Yeah Dr Bernardo this is pretty interesting to notice especially the update on the biodegradable lab which you've set up in the South Africa part of it it's actually an innovative thought and I completely agree with you that it's since the circularity is a concept which is evolving we do need to obviously take in these steps to upgrade the quality infrastructure where we have different stakeholder engagement. Also the focus could be on the developing economies where the concept is completely new so we need to also pitch in our efforts to upgrade those concepts by best practices trainings etc. So keeping in line with whatever you've just mentioned and the innovative actions which have been taken by by UNIDO, do you see ways in which IAF and UNIDO can collaborate to ensure effective implementation of the circular economy practices? Certainly, let me just start by saying UNIDO and the IAF and ILAC we have a long history of cooperation, I would like just to recall one very interesting study that we did in the implementation of the time that was the state of the art ISO 9001, a market surveillance we developed a methodology of Market surveillance to evaluate the effectiveness of ISO 9000 in the South and South Asia region, we finally came up with a publication called Good Practices:

Experience in the Market Surveillance of ISO 9001 
Quality Management System and this is something we can do together is to look how this mechanism how the certification schemes are working and if they are working properly because as you know we have also the challenge to build trust. We say always, we I say we the family of the QI Community, we claim that conformity assessment and QI is building trust but sometimes we need to make sure that outsiders are not abusing of the existing of this and you know we the example in extreme is ISO 9000 but we have problems also with other standards and the claims are and so we can work on that in the governance yeah? I think this is this is an area, sure we have been working very much together we support uh I'm just thinking in Ghana to help the certification body to be accredited to prepare them and so this type of activities are Important, but I'm thinking more the upstream work we can do together. We have another important work we do in the framework of the INetQI International Quality Infrastructure Network and here we have been also building consensus for joint definition of quality infrastructure system we were part of this, we have been collaborating on providing technical training programs, we have been issuing Methodologies, publications, guidance documents, we can do much more of that and we can link it now to the circular economy and to what happened in COP 27 which was the definition of the net zero has been there's a guidance document that was launched so we can align more to that and as you know in ISO there is the so-called London Declaration which is looking after reviewing all our actions from the sustainability point of view so we can do together. We have also been cooperating with the launching of the Quality Infrastructure for Sustainable Development Index it's a benchmarking tool it's not a ranking but it's a benchmarking tool. The difference to other rankings is that this index assesses the state of a QI Readiness in relation to the Sustainable Development Goals.

So in relation to the three pillars People, Planet, Prosperity and it tries to demonstrate the value of QI for sustainable development. So why do we need to invest in this regard and this important? Because a lot of the funding and a lot of the international support will be coming towards the net zero paradigm, so this is something very important we have been doing together. Another aspect but this is more with with ILAC but still a joint work we are doing is LabNet and we have been collaborating this this is part of this joint work we do in the framework of INetQI. We have also an another entry point which is the Joint Development Support Committee to which we contribute and that helps us to identify the needs of developing countries where we report what we are doing and we capitalize on the experiences, so this is another way where we can bring this discussion a bit forward I think. This is still on our agenda and maybe we can use this wonderful impulse that you are giving to this to bring this to the discussion, thank you. 
Yeah thank you Dr Bernardo, I completely agree that there has been a lot of activities which IAF and UNIDO have undertaken and looking into the circularity part of it and this new concept I'm sure that IAF and UNIDO will go forward with their collaboration on technical training, adapting what methodologies to be adopted, developing some guidance documents and likewise and so on. Not necessarily to just the developed countries but also to progress it to the developing countries to upgrade their understanding, knowledge, skill and everything so thank you for the detailed update of the collaboration between UNIDO and IAF as well as ILAC of course. 
Now as we understand the different activities which UNIDO have undertaken, Stephanie can I request you to please let us know if at the European Union level there have been any actions in relation to the circular economy?
Yes thank you, there have been. The European Union has set up an action plan really a circular economy action plan that is part of what’s called the European Union Green Deal which is a greater plan to transform the European economy as such towards sustainability. And this greater deal addresses the widest range, it tackles energy, mobility, building and construction, foods, pollution, emissions, biodiversity, on the other hand finance
being backbone structure to all of it, research being another net that is orienting and informing and helping us to understand better, so within that wider deal the circular economy aspects are broken down to individual actions, so more than 30, to make sustainable products the norm as we did so many years ago with safe products on the markets sustainability is now a new product or not new but in the focus of this legislative activities an aspect to characterize products and to build into products and that is and I was already struggling to break it down because it is obviously a multi-dimensional undertaking, there are key value chains identified and in focus and that electronics, vehicles, textiles, foods, packaging which is cutting across a lot of value chains and construction and another cutting across aspects which is also key is waste and you mentioned it Aparna, waste reduction really and all of it aims at enable circularity on all levels so from the very personal individual housekeeping to the environment cities and regions builds and to catch all of it and, as for the actual regulatory crafts, this would imply the revision or it does imply the revision of existing legal Acts towards empowering the consumers by providing better information, better product information, so to splice that into consumer law and on the other end to have a more modern regulation when it comes to waste. But revising what we have doesn't really do the trick, there's also new legislation needed mostly aiming at transparency that relates to disclosure of information, in the context of sustainability or relating to sustainability, and that is at the same time to harmonize criteria in order to be able to categorize what is circular, what is sustainable, what is understood, and how can I act upon as a Consumer, as a buyer, as a B2B relationship. And another facet of this multi-faceted endeavor is to establish a new right to repair, to actually build into all the legal frameworks the right the consumer has to have products repaired which also cuts across from the design to the actual waste management and resourcing and providing spares and repair opportunities and so this would be the last projection of this matrix that would consider to target many economic focal points in order to make it work. Mechanisms would be needed for jobs and skills., new jobs perhaps different jobs, new skill sets. It would need to address industries as such I just leave it at that and on the other hand some other big structures which are less industrial and private, more publicly governed like urban initiatives or public activities, so t’at's the the circular economy plan the European Union has in mind and is currently developing and pushing towards implementation and you see that’it's quite a comprehensive endeavor 
but to my mind that that makes sense it ’an't be less encompassing, it can't be less complex than the circular economy itself and all the systems that act within and that act in its favor and I know very well that I'm that I'm addressing an accreditor audience and obviously the accreditation clockwork is one of these systems acting within and Bernardo mentioned it's contributing building the trust and well, adding its piece to make it all work.

Yeah so I think with that Stephanie I know it's like a quite diverse area of work because I completely agree with you that to categorize the sustainable part of it and to find out the disclosure information on the sustainability and to ensure that it is effectively produced, monitored, so obviously conformity assessment is going to have a major role and when we talk about conformity assessment as you mentioned accreditation also has a major role to play about it. So both of them will require to be incorporated either in the legislative or the actions which the EU is taking a European Union is taking related to the circular economy, do you want to highlight any further actions on this area or do you think that whatever green claims and the carbon emission measurement and the waste production manage measurement are some of them which are sufficient or would you like to have your views expressed, what further could be done in this regard?

Well, in a nutshell I would say we need to do it right because if it's all about confidence and trust we would need to have a reliable and trustworthy results and conformity statements and that's easy said but as we all know not easily done and, but feasible, we're experts in this activity but it requires a lot of ingredients we do need a standardized and reliable and robust accessible requirements, so that is if you ask me what needs to be done we really need to characterize and specify and break down our needs and expectations to something that is assessable and that can withstand the challenge that is robustly done and reliably done and reproducibly done and that the results are comparable because the ultimate worst case in all of it and that relates to consumer decisions as well as investors spending money and regulators

setting frameworks is that we build on something that is not actually what's supposed to be and I am very careful with keywords like greenwashing or rainbow washing but that would be the ultimate worst case, that a lot of energy is engaged and invested and the output is is meager. So we would need to set this up according to a robust structure, which we do have we do have you'll know That, and you're you're working with it daily but it's it needs to be at its core in order to provide what we what we strive for. Yeah,
I agree we do have a robust structure but as you mentioned your keywords like robust, standardized, assessable requirements these are something new which need to be built in for the circular economy concept and we need to be very careful in doing that because it does have that element of that five-letter word trust which is actually a key importance.
So in similar lines can I seek the views of Dr Bernardo as well as to what would be the way forward steps you feel related to ensuring this trust factor in the QI infrastructure of the circular economy? 
Thank you, one important element I think that needs to be highlighted because we talked about policy in the higher levels but we need to bring it down to the production level and when we see there that the circular economy really relies on maintaining the material quality for Reusing/using the things for longer. So these trends are pushing more responsibility on the producer because they have to incentivize and they need to make sure that the material is more durable is longer lasting that there are more materials can be reused so we have been in in the last years witnessing a growing interest in what it is called the reverse supply chain which is precisely referring to the backward flow of materials and products as opposed to forward supply chain. So with this reverse supply chain products at the end of the life cycle that are reprocessed and introduced back into the forward supply chain. So this process is first of all under the responsibility of the producer but he needs to have the elements to assess that because this is what will help to expand the circularity. So quality of the reprocessed product or materials becomes the decisive element, the decisive factor to use this new project and to define the limits of reuse of the resources. So this is a very important element that we need to look at. Secondly, we can look at an example on wastewater. Wastewater contains many components phosphorus nitrogen so but there are also pollutants yeah so you have both you have to recuperate, reuse  part of that and recover but also because you want to use this recovered water for irrigation or for other industrial purposes and even for drinking water but in if you want to maximize the efficiency of this quality supply you need to verify and you need to implement proper quality assurance to produce this quality output you are looking for. So another very distinctive case that illustrate this where UNIDO is working heavily is on waste electrical and electronic Equipment, e-waste, and there we have a lot of toxic compounds such as lead, mercury, cadmium, brominated flame retardants and here it is a problem also on the use of the resources because if we don't do not recover properly we are not optimizing the use of this material. Minerals are becoming more rare and we know that they are damaging the environment in the way they are being produced. The conditions to produce any of these materials be it lithium or etc. probably have strong social and environmental aspects so we need to look much deeper so this is why this this process of eliminating the toxic compounds can really be very important to be careful because the toxic compounds can leak into the water, can leak into the soil, they contaminate with this waste electronics, the landfills and can be incinerated. So the adoption of quality standards for us is very important because of the negative environmental aspects, the risk for human health and we even don't know what is happening, so this is something that is part of the more traditional environmental pollution control 
aspect but we need to take it into account in this new concept of circularity. So quality management principles are the right way that can help circularity and I always say these are the basis, to have a management system is the basis, and you can then adjust to the needs be it innovation, be it environment, be it IT security because that's another aspect we're not touching all the problems that the digitalization brings about, so we need to adapt all these procedures so that we can move into circularity. on the interoperability, among the different standards, actors, processes and future projects. So we see that the circular economy is really gaining traction but also we see that only nine percent of the world is going circular, nine percent, this is from the World Economic Forum. So we need to make sure to accelerate this process and we need to be more ambitious. So a quality in terms of functionality and safety is eventually the basis as I say but it's not Sufficient, so we need to add sustainability this is a new dimension with social and environmental aspects so that we go back to the big picture of the SDGs where we have people, planet and prosperity but now for enterprises and we need to measure, we are in the business of measurement, and then we will be able to contribute more to the environmental and social impact, thank you. 
Yeah thanks Dr Bernardo, and as he accorded that there's a need that we implement the quality management systems across the supply chain and it's just not at the QI level but also at the manufacturer level wherein at the production level where we need to ensure that at each stage there is an element of trust instilled and understanding goes deep down. So it's not just that we talk about at the QI but across the whole ecosystem. So 
as today's thank you both of you for the extreme thoughts that you've given an innovative approach for the circular economy concept because as we all know this paradigm shift to circular economies is inevitable. So there is a requirement that we harmonize the definitions, the data, the standards, the methodologies, across different stakeholders be it industry, be it our national governments, be it international organizations, or anybody as such because we see that different regions are taking different action plan at their end for building this trust. We also need to ensure that these action plans are in coherence being collaborated so that it has effective implementational ground and thus the QI network consisting of standards, conformity assessment bodies, metrological institutes, accreditation bodies, all have a key role because they are the ones who will independently verify the circular economy claims being made by the manufacturers, thereby instilling trust amongst all the stakeholders. So robust testing and certification infrastructure will reassure the high quality during the product life cycle and will facilitate in reaching the global market with involvement of all stakeholders. When I say all stakeholders, I know it is important for example in today's discussion what we need, we saw the ISO/CASCO working at a level where they're interacting with IAF, UNIDO is interacting with IAF in different activities, likewise we need to find out the other stakeholders and work in coherence so that we are effectively able to implement the concepts of circular economy in a harmonized fashion across all the different regions and sensitize everybody be it the developed nations or be it the developing economy. So thank you both of you for your sparing your time and sharing your important views and on behalf of IAF it is my immense pleasure to host this podcast and with this I would like to sign off today's podcast and happy viewing to all the viewers, thank you so much.