Pouria 0:15
Hello fellow podcasters Welcome to the CFASA podcast where we discuss various topics
around neurodiversity, and autism spectrum disorder with self advocates, program directors and
occupational therapists, families and clinicians. I hope you enjoy what we have in store for you
today. Today we are joined by a Danielle Thompson, self advocate here in our Edmonton
community. Welcome, Danielle, thank you for joining us.
Thank you for having me. I'm definitely I'm very pleased and very hopeful about this great
opportunity. So I greatly appreciate it. Yeah, thank you.
We want to spend some time talking to you about language, but before we do that, I don't I
didn't want to speak on your behalf. So I was hoping we could spend a couple of minutes and
you could introduce yourself to our audience and tell us about yourself.
Danielle 1:11
Okay. Well, I guess about myself. I am 28. I currently live in Edmonton. I actually just moved in a
couple of weeks ago, so technically three weeks ago and 10 minutes and finally got to my
parents place in St. Albert, but I've been living in St. Albert Since 22,000. Like I said over Yeah
17-18 years like I've been in Edmonton St. Albert since I was 11. But anyways, that's just like
quite, um, I currently work full time for a not for profit organization. I've been with the company
for four years, you know for years coming up. I currently work as a program accountant for
them. And I was diagnosed with mild Asperger's when I was 17.
So and then I'm currently in the process of getting my certification in payroll, and I'm currently in
the process of also getting my business administration accounting. diploma through Nick have
the exact same time.
Pouria 2:10
Yeah, it seems like you're very, very busy. So I really appreciate you giving us your time today.
So as I mentioned, we want to talk to you a little bit about language, specifically when it
comes to person first versus identity first language. And so for for our listeners that are
hearing those terms for the first time, the person first language in the context of autism is
saying, for example, a person with autism or as identity first is more autistic person. So
first of all, do you have a preference personally with one or the other?
Danielle 2:43
I prefer autistic person over person with autism just because it's just more of identity
thing that yeah, I'm autistic. There's nothing wrong with that fact. But of course, it's one
of those things that it's like a person with autism is almost like a little bit discriminatory
in my understanding of it. It's almost like telling somebody, you know, I guess they're gay or
something like that, and that it's the same thing as a label, right? Where it's like, oh, yeah, this is
a gay person. Instead of saying a person with autism, to me, it's the same thing. I prefer autistic
person, the person with autism

Pouria 3:20
sounds good. Good to know.
Danielle 3:24
Not a lot of difference I guess for me when it comes to both of them but that's just how I identify
it's almost you know, like like saying non binary and binary. Like everything right, everything has
a label. So of course, how I see it, it's almost like I just want to be able to, like I said, to me,
autistic person is more like an acceptable term than something that is more just against it than
any thing.
Warren 3:53
Yeah, for sure. So, to add on to the topic of first person first language, I came across this
article where creative writer and reporter Maria Ranger, she gives her criticism on person
first language. The title is person first language causes more discrimination. And I'd like
to read you a few quotes and he could tell me your thoughts about it. So the first quote
is, I personally dislike person first language for many reasons. The first is that it feels
condescending, and like meaningless pandering and the second quote is it feels like a
euphemism, implied to outright saying their disability or health condition is something to
be ashamed of, and thus leads to more stigma. So Danielle, what are your initial thoughts
on the on the author's description of Person person first language?
Danielle 4:51
Okay, my initial thoughts is that, I guess it can come across that way because like I said,
it's the same as you know, somebody who has PTSD, ADHD, whatever it should be
presented in a way where like, like I said, I don't want that to be a like, like anything bad
in that regard. Because of course, you know, like I said, everyone's been picked on everyone
has gone through that kind of situation. Probably not everyone, um, but it's still pretty
hurtful in that regard. Because like I said, it's that label. It's how it's said it's how it's
worded. It's all of that within that regard. It's just how it said. So like, if language was a part of
the fact that it's more like if it was rewarded differently than it's more accepting and not hurtful.
There's like I said, a lot of people can be hurt by how things are said than anything. Because,
you know, like I said, language is a big thing that everybody needs to talk about. And
that's where even I'm learning about communication a lot more over the years. Like I'm
actually currently reading nonviolent communication. And actually, that's a really
amazing book if people really want to be more nonviolent about how they communicate
and how language is worded within that and how the identity portion of it should be more
like I said, accepting and not so against it. So within that nature, yes, I do agree to what the
author is suggesting because like I said, a lot of people can take it in a different form.
than anything else. And like I said, what, what she is saying is, like, I don't think it's
completely true. Like I said, it's just how people are wording it than anything else, if that
makes sense. Yeah.
Pouria 6:50

So what I what I hear you saying is the the language is what plays into how comfortable
people are in an environment and if we're trying to create inclusive environments is sort
of one of the easiest things to check off the list of a whole host of things.
Danielle 7:07
And it needs to be worded in a way that it's like I said, more included and like I said, all autistic
people just want to be accepted. We don't need the awareness of it. We just need to be
accepted for who we are and to be included. It's the same way if you know the Black Lives
movement, it's the same thing. So it's the same with everything that's been going on in the world
lately. So of course you know, even autism is a big thing is like it's gonna be around forever just
because, you know, it's not anything bad, right? So of course, it's like I said, it's just how things
are worded. And it needs to be more nonviolent instead of how everything's turning out. To be
violent because then that's where wars and everything comes into play. Right. That's why the
cold, like restarted was just because of how they were communicating. Absolutely.
Warren 7:59
Yeah, I feel like everyone deserves to be included in any type of environment, despite of if they
have autism, or if they have any mental disability or if they're from any background, which you
say so. Right, so let's continue on. The author has another quote and he goes on to say it's
kind of liberating. To become an advocate for myself, and refuse to let people treat my
chronic illness as something taboo or something that makes me lesser. Now Danielle, do
you think it's accurate to say that person first language perpetuates this idea that autism
is taboo or devaluing?
Danielle 8:44
Question: What does taboo actually mean?
Warren 8:50
So taboo is like I don't know the proper definition of it, but it's like Korea, correct me if I'm wrong,
like a like a norm, right, or something along those lines that he's like, Here, why don't you say
something? I don't know the proper definition.
Pouria 9:15
Yeah, it's essentially going against a social not a social norm. But something as that's seen in a
negative light, I think is the best way to put it. Yeah. Usually we see taboo used in like a social
sense, but it can also be used as something that is just seen as something negative.
Danielle 9:35
Okay. Yeah. In that regard, then. Yeah, yeah, I definitely see autism being like more of a
taboo than anything else, regardless, because Autism is a spectrum. It's a huge
spectrum. There's a lot of people that are extremely severe to the point where they can't
work. They can't do anything. Just because everything's in their mind. They have
mutism. They have all these other fibromyalgia, endometrial, like they have so much
going on. And it's not just the autism. It could also be HD, it could be every like it's a it

could be like a multiple other diagnosis. Within the autism itself. So it's a spectrum like I'm
on the very like high functioning, which is the complete opposite, compared to some of the ones
that are very severe. So within that perspective, like I said, if somebody were to come up to me
and I could have a regular I can have a regular conversation with someone and nobody would
know that I'm autistic like to me it's almost like it's an invisible super quick like I said, I like it's
almost like I just have a different way of thinking, and there's nothing wrong with that everybody.
Like I said, Everybody's born with a different brain. That's where neural diversity is huge.
Everybody's born with a different brain. I'm just born with a different brain than everyone
else. So it's like I just have a different processing. You know, it's not like it's not like I have a
processing error. I'm just born with a different motherboard. You know, like, it's like the actual
computer not regarded like a complete motherboard compared to having a processing error.
There's like a there's nothing wrong with that fact. There isn't. So of course, that's the big
thing when it comes to it. And of course, I'm a big advocate for myself in general because
I learned to accept who I am a lot more even with being autistic. Even though I'm still
learning about Asperger's. It's still the same thing as being high functioning autism. But of
course, Asperger's is just the, you know, it's no longer considered a term now than anything but
of course, that was part of the last year that was diagnosed with it before it's no longer late. But
that's besides the point. So advocacy is a huge thing. The taboo is definitely big as to
what's out there because a lot of people probably still think that, like even the vaccines
cause autism, which is BS. Like I said, it's all within genetics, like I don't know, somebody
within my, my great grandmother or my grandmother on my dad's side, or mom side, I
don't know, but one of them was more than like, be who I am. So within that, like I said,
it's one of those things that I consider a huge change that needs to definitely happen is
the fact that, oh, there's a lot of bandwidth in this world and a lot of people are taking
advantage of it. Like if you guys have heard of Autism Speaks. They're one of those
companies that I've heard a lot about that a lot of people have gone through ABA therapy, and
now it hasn't been good because it's a behavioral thing of what changing within someone who's
autistic and it has been like, pretty hurtful. I guess from what I've heard about it than anything
else. I haven't gone through it, thank goodness. But I've heard a lot of from other autistic people
and a lot of bad within that and what this company does is apparently they like every like I know
a lot of people in the states are trying to still boycott companies, but they are pretty much taking
advantage of everyone being scared of autism, like completely terrified and they're giving them
all this money to try and find a cure which is BS because I don't consider there is no cure. It's
like the same with having ADHD, PTSD, it's a fit. It's still a fit. So within that what they're trying
to do is pretty much make money off of the fact that people are scared. They're just making
money off, which isn't good and it needs to stop. It does. It needs to stop. It can't be something
that can continue it can't. People are just scared of it. And I'd rather like I said I want like I said
that's why it's almost good for others to be more accepting and, you know, like actually support
the, you know, like organizations that actually want to be more accepting and actually support
us. Even as an adult. There's a lot of support for us as adults, there's more supports for children
and teenagers than there are for adults. So I also want to be able to hopefully were raise
awareness in a way where we can actually have more supports even for people who were
undiagnosed to finally have the support and the funding to even get a diagnosis.
Because how I got diagnosed was that my parents ended up having to go to a private

psychologist, and that's how I ended up getting diagnosed. I'm not sure how much
money they spent in order for that to happen, but I know it wasn’t cheap. I wish there was
other ways that a lot of people can get diagnosed where it doesn't have to cost them a lot
of money to do so in order to have that process. Like, you know, like, you know, like not so
long or anything because the public system it takes for ever to Tropicana diagnosis. So of
course I'm gonna be able to try and help people in a way where it's you know, accepting for
everyone kind of thing.
Pouria 14:44
Yeah, absolutely. I really liked your analogy of the different motherboard. I think that really does

speak to-
Danielle 14:50

the processing area. Like like processor itself, like the actual will compute it on the internet
about like, hey,
Pouria 15:01
No, absolutely, that's great. No, I definitely understand what you're saying. It's
interesting, too, that I'm currently taking a neuroscience degree and when we first got a
lecture on on autism, we actually had a clinical psychologist come in. And he really
talked about this transition away from the curative approach, where you have like people
looking for extra quote unquote, “and more of trying to understand how we can make a
more accommodating environment and Oh, for sure, like, actually have a member of my
family who's autistic. And, you know, supports are expensive too. And I think part of that
part of talking about it is also making support more accessible to, you know, a huge
variety of people.”
Danielle 15:52
Yes, exactly. Like I said, support is huge. And it's almost like within the community itself.
We need like our friends or family people who actually like accept us in order to have that
support system in order for us to be successful as human beings. And that's huge. Yes,
communication. Is one of our struggles, but like I said, everyone has those difficulties.
Within my life, I'm learning how to communicate properly, properly, more professionally.
And it's been difficult for me because it's like I'm learning a new language. So within that
I babble like, because you know, that's what babies do when they want to talk, right?
They babble. They start imitating they start mimicking, they start doing all that when they're little
right because that's how people learn how to talk. Right? So I'm doing that. Yeah, no, apparently
it was considered something that I guess one of my co workers didn't like, and I got a pretty bad
well, not a complete, like just a bad comment on it. So I ended up actually recently setting up
accommodations with my employer. So now I'm able to wear noise canceling
headphones and I'm allowed to use my iPad, that I've used for school, use it in the
workplace. As part of my space that I need in order for me to you know, so it's like I can
kind of put all of my babbling that's going on in my head put it on an iPad if the question
is to complicated for me, and then I'll just read it off my iPad and do it that way and that's

been a huge benefit. And then I've also set up bi weekly meetings with my employer because
communication, like I said, has still been a struggle for me. So within if I had a negative
experience, like, like within my last performance appraisal, it like it was hard for me to bring it up
like it took like over six months. To me, for me to bring it up. So of course, they don't want it to
take that long. They'd rather have it within like a week period. And I'm like, I can't do a week. We
had to find a balance within that. So I told them if I can do these bi weekly meetings and I can
be able to come forward with anything negative going on within my environment, even if it's just
communication within coworkers that are not quite understanding even if it's just a joke, or just
something in general then it just makes sense that I'll be able to go through them in a you know,
like in the way that it should go because of course like I said every company has different
policies and of course I want to be able to follow there's but if there's something that I'm not
understanding, or like I said, if an issue does get brought up, then it's hard for me to bring that
up to them because like I said, it's hard for me to be comfortable with everyone in general, just
because like I said, I'm different I mask like all the frickin time because I don't feel safe. And it's
hard for me to find people that I feel completely safe with where I can be my true self. And my
like my true authentic self. Oh, so of course it's been difficult for me in that regard, to feel like
like I said that I can be accepted and then I don't have to hide all of these artistic traits that I
have. Because I know I have them, obviously. So of course, like I said, it's almost like I just want
to be able to be accepted for it and I don't want to feel like I'm doing anything wrong. Because I
feel like I'm doing something wrong all the time. No which is why I feel like I mess up constantly,
but I know that's not true. So, um, like I said, I need to have those environments in order to feel
safe enough. So it's like I don't have to mask all the time either. Which is huge. Obviously.
Pouria 19:31
We can only imagine that someone who's neurotypical, we can only imagine how much extra
energy it takes to to mask and try to constantly be monitoring your environment, whether or not
you're doing something right
Danielle 19:43
or wrong. So yeah, exactly. Because like I said, yeah, maybe 28 But I feel like I have one of
those brains that's like, you like a freakin child. Oh, I consider myself it's almost like I feel like I
have an imagination of like, I try to have a tendency to like be, you know, like, if I'm too excited.
I'm like, what my hands or do something like just to try and get all the energy out. But then of
course, if I'm stressed or anxious, then I might start. You know, like I said, it's an autism thing to
fidget and stuff like that, too. So of course, I try and have fidget toys wherever I go. If I'm feeling
stressed, or if my emotions get too high. I need something to kind of just call me down. So of
course, my mother has taught me that I should make sure I calm myself down in that regard. So
of course it's yeah, it's the balance within all of that within myself. That's hard to be able to feel
like I say every autistic person is different within that regard. Because of course, like I said, it's
like I said, I want to just be able to fit in and be like part of like, not completely part of the social
norm but still be accepted within the social environment. And of course, you know, yes, I'm
autistic but I feel like I'm definitely more of an introverted extrovert in that regard, because I like
to socialize and I like having friends and I like being involved. And I like having all of that but of
course, it's just been difficult at the same time. You know, because of course, like I said, I do

have social anxiety on top of it. So I want to make sure that I'm still within conversations, even
though it's still hard.
Pouria 21:23
It really speaks to how much work we still have to do as a community. But really, the bar to clear
is just so that autistic people have a safe environment
Danielle 21:35
It's a scary world out there. So of course, that's why a lot of us feel like don't have that
environment to do so. Like only within certain people that we trust. It's not like everyone on the
streets, right?
Pouria 21:53
Absolutely. I just want to go back to their experience with your employer. Did you find that it
was difficult to ask for accommodations, were they open to it? What was that experience
like?
Danielle 22:05
Actually, I had some assistance from my current significant other you guys actually
might know him for the actually did work for Center for Autism services. And he actually
also works for autism limited. So but he was a big help. I actually met him through the
conference back in the day afterwards. Like he was a big he was a big help and trying to
get that started, which I'm very thankful for and grateful for for him in general. Oh, he's
been a very big blessing in my life. Um, so within that, my experience was setting up
accommodation. All like pretty much needed was a doctor's note. So I just ended up
getting one for my actual family physician and I got one for my psychologist, so I had to double
up so they ended up so how I went about it, though I didn't go about it the right way. I honestly
didn't go about it the right way. And there was a comment that I mentioned within a staff
satisfaction survey because of course the company wants to know what they need to
improve on and stuff like that. So we ended up having a meeting as staff in order to figure out
you know, like, what they could work on stuff like that. So I made a comment that they needed
to be more educated in your diversity. They want to know the explanation from me and being
a part of the meeting. And of course that then what when I ended up having an emotional
explosion and that's what I kind of does that. Yeah, I get accommodations within that and I know
I didn't go about it right so at least within the process of getting my accommodation set up, at
least within that I was able to it's almost like it's almost like I did a good thing with setting
that up. Even though I went about it wrong. It was it was one of those things where it's like I
could have gone to strike for that but I didn't you know, it's like I'm trying to say, hey, I need
help. I need something different, right? But of course, I just didn't know how to go about
it properly, because of course I was a little scared of how they're react to it than anything,
even if just talking to HR or my boss. So of course, that was something that I had to endure than
anything. Yes, my boss has been there for a couple of years, but it doesn’t mean we were close.
So just let me know I have a personal relationship. I have a good professional relationship, if
that makes sense. So of course it was difficult for me that just go to that in general about it when

I was going through all the emotions back in March. So and April. So once I was able to, I
guess go through the process, they ended up giving me I guess, a paperwork in the
regard of yes, it's not out there within their policies that you're allowed to some
accommodations, but they gave me I guess in her quote a coaching plan, and then they
use that document as a way to set up what I need for accommodations and how the
conversation went between myself in HR. And then eventually my boss got involved. So I
ended up having a lot of assistance from my partner in that regard to try and set that up
on anything, but I needed to I needed to know within myself to a degree what I needed.
But of course it was difficult to have that worded in a way where they understood. So of
course I wanted the fact that during COVID I wanted to have the opportunity to work from home
because at the time I was still living at my parents place. They had an office, they had a printer
they had everything that I needed, so it makes sense for me to be able to still work from home I
wasn't completely comfortable going back into the office. So that was my original
accommodation. Unfortunately I wasn't able to get that accommodated, which is why I was like
okay, well, I will be able to work full time, but these are my conditions in order to work. So that's
why I need and I need my iPad and I need so those are my conditions in the fact that you know
they wanted out of course, the fact that I think they didn't want me to work from home is
because since I work in accounting, I work with a lot of confidential information in general from
expenses, timesheets, like I like a lot of it for personal information and confidential information
that shouldn't be out there, obviously. So of course, I think that was in part a security reason as
to why they didn't want me to work from home. So like I said, this was the process of the being
able to settle I want and I was able to talk to my boss about it. We had a meeting about it, and
now it's in the coaching plan. And then that's how do we move forward from there? Oh, and I
also have a combination with how the review process
within just how performance appraisal goes because how I say it is it takes me a lot longer to I
guess be able to process what's going on within myself as to what I need to work on and what
others are saying about me and stuff like that because I don't want what happened last time to
happen again. A comment comes out wrong where it could be discriminatory or ableist or
anything like that. So I wanted it to be in a way where if there's something that I don't like within
it, then I can still process and be able to go to them. So I asked for more time within how that
process works. So even though I might not get like a new contract right away or a new raise or
anything like that right away I said I can still go through it a little differently this time to be able to
go through the emotions, go through my reaction, be able to think about what I need to work on
and stuff like that within that and then be able to go to them afterwards. Once I'm done
reviewing it all within a time frame. Because I said I'd be able to go through the whole thing
within a month instead of within a week and then have this meeting and then feel pressured to
sign everything right away. Sorry. Okay, so, like I said, it's within that time frame because I feel
pressured. To sign things right away, right when the meeting happens and they go through all
the comments and go through everything that I'm like, I can't have that. I just can't I don't want to
feel like I'm signing my life. I'm that often. So I like having the pressure where it's like okay, I can
accept whatever's within the review first and be able to go through that first before I sign
everything. Because like I said, it was one of those companies that it's a not for profit. So of
course we're paid by the government. And I want to be able to enter into contract basis because

it's per program and everything like that. So I understand their point of view in that regard. So
like I said, I don't want to say anything that I'm not supposed to say but within that that's how the
company works. And there's nothing wrong with that. I just want to be able to still be accepted
within their process and within how they do reviews. And that's it and then just be able to do my
job and be successful at that because of course like I said, I'm good at it or also I would still be
my boss is pretty happy with me because I'm pretty good at
Pouria 29:16
absolutely, yeah, I just want to recognize how much courage it probably took to really set the
groundwork because I think this company from what it sounds like, you really set the precedent
of them being a little bit more accommodating and putting those processes in place.
Danielle 29:32
And I feel like this is one of the first time they've ever had to like be with you know, like, I feel like
I'm their guinea pig a little bit but not in a bad way. Kind of a good thing was like I'm their first
person that they've ever hired who's actually autistic. And of course, the people that do know
about it are the people that needed to know so my boss to have my two or three of my co
workers that I actually currently work with within the accounting department they all know and
then the CEO and the CEO know about it and I think one of the like, and I think I'm one other
person that I work with within within the organization that I work with to do rage subsidies or
invoicing or any of those kind of tasks. They know about it but like the entire company No, not
everyone else. But like I said, only the people that I want to disclose that should know and then
they're able to work with me now. And that's what I want. I want to have a good working
professional relationship with them. It's taken a while to set that up, but at least I feel like I'm a
good advocate for myself in that regard. And then I can be able to do that for someone else.
Even though they're more than likely their accommodations will be different than mine, but at
least there'll be an easier process for them.
Pouria 30:48
Yeah, absolutely. And there's no like, cut and dry cookie cutter approach is sort of has to you
have to build in the open mindedness into the company culture to be able to go through that
route and provide accommodations but yeah, I'm sure anyone who is autistic and ends up
working for this company will thank you for really setting the precedents
Danielle 31:09
Okay, the good thing because they are great organization like I said they are not for profit that
help unemployed over and find jobs. And I actually like the look three have you been how he
ended up? Getting happy I'm still there and that they still like me working for them. So that's a
huge thing because it's hard for me to be comfortable with wherever I work, because I have
worked for big organizations I've worked for like I've worked in retail. I've done like the whole
nine yards of that and I love accounting like I fell in love with accounting. When I was at
NorQuest back in like 2015 was when I was back in school 2014 2015 Because I did the
administrative and professional certificate program at our quest. And then they had basic
bookkeeping within that course I got 97% of the final goods. I thought that was bled into like,

way merch I think yeah. And then in 2016 17 I took the accounting technician certificate
program and I ended up doing really well in that course and I loved every single minute of it,
even though taxes and things but a little more challenging, but I was able to still get through it
within myself because I found everything else really easy and explanatory that I'm like, okay,
yep, this is definitely something I want to do because I've just find it easy and I actually love
doing it. And so that's what I've been currently working towards within that regard. And then
once I took the accounting Tech, I actually ended up getting my work experience through my
current employer. I ended up doing a mock with them, but I ended up having an old supervisor
at the time. Um, she ended up loving me when I was there. But of course at the time, they didn't
have a job for me after my placement was done. So I was going to join one of their programs
that they had at the time as a client, but I ended up finding a job instead of trying to find an
employer that will take me on to just get work experience. I ended up finding an employer for a
three month contract. And so I ended up doing that, but they didn't want to do the program itself,
which was fine, but at least I still had a contract, contracting job. So I did that within the three
month time period and within that my old supervisor reached out to me within not even to like
within two months of my contract. The other employer, she ended up reaching out saying hey,
we need somebody for accounting. So they ended up and of course she reached out to me
because she loved what I did and what I did for the companies and within the month of free
work. experience for them because it was done by NorQuest you know, they're paying me for
me to be there, whatever. Had that sorted but anyways, so actually right after my contract ended
with that big employer ended up going back to my current employer like the day after, like legit
it's like I had ended my three month contract on Halloween started working for them the first like
the right next day, so like I didn't lose the job. I just I've been with them ever since.
Pouria 34:09
Well, it's great to hear you found something you love.
Danielle 34:11
They're very small organization, which is where I wanted to get my certification in payroll,
because of course within their department, they only have an HR representative. They don't
have any actual HR department or anything for payroll and everything like that. So all of the
payroll falls on accounting. So I want to be able to be a good asset within them for that. But of
course, it's a little bit of a struggle of how to get the work experience through them. So I'm still in
the process of trying to talk to CPA and how I'm supposed to get the work experience in that
regard because I really I read years to get it but of course within this organization I don't even
get 35 hours in a year or something like that, in order to get my full work experience that I need
in order to be certified. So I'm in the process of trying to figure out if there's a way that I can
extend the time or be able to talk to them to try and figure out how they go about it just because
I do work for a smaller organization instead of the big one where I'm currently like you don't like
where I'm doing payroll all the time. I'm not. I mostly do accounting all the time, because that's
what the job description is. So this is stuff that I'm trying to figure out as to what to do. So I
currently don't want to leave them but I don't know I might have to and that's the sad thing and
that's what I'm currently going through and I don't want to so I don't know if I should still continue

with getting my certification or not. So that's where I'm currently going through and I don’t want
to...
Pouria 35:30
on. See, well, hopefully it all works out. I just want to bring the conversation back a little bit to
our conversation around language and I know that we've we've already talked about how
identity first language is the way to go. I did find a blog post by self-advocate from
Massachusetts advocates for children, about the pros and cons of person first versus
identity first language and I just want to quickly read you a quote from that posts, talking
about the drawbacks of identity first language. And I'm conscious of the fact that
obviously identity first for most in the Autistic community is is the way to go. And so I
don't want to make it seem like we're talking about opposing views to identity first
language and giving it similar amount of weight as what we talked about when it comes
to opponents of person first language, but I'll go ahead and read you a quote here. “The
autistic community sees their disability as being a fundamental part of who they are.
There are some drawbacks to using identity first language for instance, this type of
language may cause people to think that a person's disability completely defines who
they are. This is especially problematic with some people's views on disabilities are
based solely on negative stereotypes, such as that autistic people lack empathy.” I think
the underlying assumption here is that autism is a disability and talking with some self
advocates during their last annual conference, I think someone mentioned that they saw
it more as a superpower and I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.
Danielle 37:13
With that being said, I'm actually an empath. I actually found that out recently where I can
feel a lot of somebody's energy and be able to really relate to other people, even though
it's extremely hard for me to be able to communicate that but I can feel it like like I said, I
feel like you know, like if a friend is going through a process of like, for instance, one of my
friends her grandfather recently passed away. So but for her her grandfather raised her so it's
almost like she lost a father and a grandfather so I could feel that energy off of her and it's
almost like you lost a parent. And that's so tough for someone to go through that anything. So
like even how I describe my emotions, it's so strong and it's so intense for me that it's you know,
like it's it's almost like instead of my aunt and uncle Danner Borges, my parents getting a
divorce or I feel like it's more intimate and not just something that's just extended within that
regard. You don't like I said, and and uncles more extended family and it's, it shouldn't be that
big of a deal. But for me, it is a big deal, where it's still like personal where it's like, hey, like I
said, it's almost like my parents are getting the course like What the frick happened. So of
course, it's like I said, I think so strong we that it's really hard for me to be able to process their
emotions and my emotions because that's where it's like it's almost like I mimic them. Like I
don't know, it's really hard to describe that in that regard. But like I said, we are empathetic if
we just have a hard time showing it but I think that's what every I think that's what a lot of
people are trying to get at yes a lot of us are to ourselves and stuff like that because like like I
said, we just have a hard time communicating and be able to relate to others in a way where it's
just, like I said, we just talk a little differently. We just communicate a lot differently. We have

language barriers, we have a lot going on within that regard. So like I said, there are ways that
we can relate it's just, we just have a hard time showing there. I think that's just the big thing
within what I'm getting out of the message than anything is within just how we show
those emotions and empathy and being able to, like I said, connect with others. In a way
where like, it's not just about us, it's about them.
Warren 39:45
For sure. So, after this topic, let's talk about sorry. I have another question for you. We're gonna
switch over to something more general. How do you think how we talk about autism
affects our perception of autism.
Danielle 40:04
autism? That's a difficult question. Because like I said, it depends on how people really like
perceive what autism is to them than anything. I guess that's the big thing that I'm trying
to struggle with is what people perspective is in regards to autism because of course,
like I said, I just find it like I said, it's almost like everybody's born with their different
mental illnesses. I guess even Yes, autism is more of a disability that it is a mental
illness, but at the same time, it's still mental. It's still everything within the brain and
everything within here. It's all wired and connected. Like I said differently. In a way that
that's just how we think, clearly think creatively. Think logically think, everything in that regard
where, like I said, Yes, it's it's a disability because of the fact that we're just not good. Like I said,
having social cues having the like, what I struggle with is definitely the body language, the
iContact the sarcasm, the like, knowing when somebody needs to be left alone, like I need all of
those like more straightforward. And so then it's almost like I'm not affecting their boundaries or
their bubble I guess, because I'm a big hugger. I'm a very big person that's like, I want to give
out hugs. I want to be able to connect with people in that regard. But it's like, if somebody's
having a rough day, and if they just want to be left alone or just don't want to be touched or
anything like that. Then of course I don't get those cues. I don't I can't pick up on those little
social cues that people are able to give off of. It's like I said, it's almost like legit, I'm blind. Like I
black. I can't see anything like somebody's blind, like you can't see anything. Right like an actual
blind. It's something that I just can't see. And there's a lot of Autistics that we just can't read it we
just we just can't. So like how are we supposed to be able to communicate that that's what we're
trying to, like have out there or express to them that it's like, Hey, can you try and be more direct
in like just even just within the, I guess, as I call it, all the invisible people, but still something that
needs to be addressed in order for us to communicate and relate and that's just like in
everybody's perspective within that it's just it's like I said it's just something that's a reality for
everyone within the regards of just communication like everything should be communicated.
And everything should be expressed even if face you know, like even though normally those
cues and everything aren't communicated they should be that's just what I've learned over the
years. So if I have to be more direct about you know, like, I don't want to be touched right now. I
don't want to be like I'm going through a hard time i like i said i It's almost like those kinds of
things. I just need communicated and even myself, I'm learning how to communicate that within
myself and even getting better. I guess being more direct and being more straightforward as to
where I'm at currently and where like my emotions are in everything because sometimes I

struggle with being present in the moment. And being here it's almost like I kind of dissociate a
little bit. And that's something that I've struggled with and I'm trying to be able to be here and not
anywhere else. So I'm not sure if that answers the question, but at least a perspective that
everyone should still be aware of that it's just like I said, it's just about communication. It's
about how we show it. It's about how we show the emotion even though we're just to
ourselves. It's almost like we're just socially awkward. We're legit just socially awkward.
Like I had a hard time making friends over the years but of course at the same time, I had a
hard time making friends because I was shy for one I couldn't really communicate much to
people because I didn't know really what to say to like, you know, classmates within myself
growing up in general, I also moved a lot. So that was also tough for me like Edmonton isn't the
place that I was mostly born and raised. Yes, I did move here when I was 11 years old, but
current, but it's not where I'm normally from like I'm I was born in BC. And then within being born
in British Columbia, and then having to move constantly because of my dad's job. I ended up
having to live here, over that timeframe, but I've been to five elementary schools my entire life.
Goals for a little kid. I was always the new kid and then like I said, these are not little moves.
These are big moves. So I moved from like Port Moody, which is like the outskirts of Vancouver
to Calgary. Not like very little moves within the city. These are big continents big provinces big
three big differences. So it was tough on like anybody to go through those situations, make new
friends go through all of that. So I struggled with making friends for years in that regard because
I was just so shy and to myself and I didn't know how to be more expressive with those
emotions and being able to be more open. It was hard for me to even communicate with my
parents when I was little and tell them that I was struggling in school. Like for instance, within
language itself, which is actually part of my disability is the fact that I cannot process a second
language to say I can't I've gone through the French immersion process from grades one to five.
So we're everything is in French one language or one course or whatever is an English the rest
of French. So that was very difficult for me. I had a comprehension level of a great tour. And I
was in great flux. So it was very, very, very hard to be able to come to my parents and be like,
Hi, I feel like it's very of me not being able to process and be able to comprehend the language.
So that was a big struggle for me. So of course, within my schooling, I had to be held back
twice. So I was supposed to graduate high school in 2011 Originally, because that was with my
age group. I ended up not graduating high school till 2013. So two years later, but that's
because I did Greek five twice. So I did one in French one in English. So at least now you know
what and then I did grade 12 points because I was missing a couple of core courses but I had
enough of the other courses like credits to graduate so I was able to walk with my friends at one
high school, then switch to high school to get my diploma there and graduated the following
year after to get my actual diploma. Yeah, it was definitely not an easy route but hopefully
everything worked out.
Warren 46:55
Yeah, definitely hopefully. Thank you for your insight on that. So I want to shift focus a little bit
and and talk about identity actually. You mentioned you were diagnosed 11 years ago. Do you
think the cultural shift around how we think and talk about autism has played a role in forming
your identity today?

Danielle 47:18
Can you repeat the question?
Warren 47:21
Do you think the cultural shift around how we think and talk about autism has played a role in
forming your identity today?
Danielle 47:30
The culture itself and how like I said how I see it in general. I do feel like everyone's getting to
be in like I said we're in the generation where everything is talked about. Liike we're
everything is an open book. Growing up. It's almost like even just talking about sex was not
something that was not talked about. So within autism and everything in general in regards to
identity as a whole, it's one of those things that I feel like needs to be like culturally, I do
feel like everybody's opening out more about it and being more accepting of what autism
really is, in that regard. Because, you know, like I said, it's something that needs to be
like addressed in a way where like I said, it's just more accepting and I feel like over time,
it should be more in that regard. more open and have more supports, have more
accommodations, have more everything, everything. So I do feel like we're definitely
getting there. But I know there's still a lot of work and a lot of process and like a lot of
process that needs to be made in that regard in order for like I said for the discrimination
to not continue to happen the cable for like I said, No more bullying no more nothing like I
want to be able to be hopefully in more of a world that like I said just more accepting
more open like they are starting to be and just more like, like, like I said, it's almost like
everyone needs to be educated in a way that is able to, you know, like so that everyone
can relate to one another and have those connections build. So I feel like within the culture
and everything like that, I think Europe is way more ahead of us. I definitely feel like they're way
more like 2024 or whatever, how I feel that the whole like that's where we need to end up in
where they're at within their autism community than anything else a real skirt or what have done
her thing and come across Canada to try and raise awareness for the global world and you
know, like within the global warming and everything that she was trying to protest like a couple
years ago about before the pandemic so of course, that's something that I feel like is a good
change and I feel like a lot more autistics are starting to advocate a lot more for
themselves. And I think that's a huge accomplishment because like I said, it's something
that we really want to be able to be accepted for and just open like just open and be able
to, like I said, be able to, like voice more like even for the ones that can't be able to be
that voice for them like the ones that can't speak whatsoever and be like, Hey, this is where I'm
at. This is what we need change this as the supports we need and be able to meet those needs
and meet those, like the ones that they need in order for them to, you know, like I said, just get
through life.
Pouria 50:38
Absolutely. I think it's really interesting to this this past summer I came across a couple
different online content creators that are artistic self advocates that are putting

themselves out there on tick tock on Instagram and sharing their stories. I think that was
like super impactful. I I found myself learning even though you know i I've worked with
the Autistic community community for the past couple of years I have still found myself
learning every time I saw a video
Danielle 51:05
and here's the thing this is a big thing that I want you to understand is the fact that yes,
you know, like you have your you know, like person that you know, but that's just one
person. You know what I'm getting at you only know one person who's autistic or the
autistic person you only know them there's many that have different stories and how
they see because this is my story. My story is going to be a lot different than somebody
else's because their autism is a lot different than mine. And that's it. That's legit it
everybody's like as it's like I said it's almost like we want to tell our own stories in a way that hey,
this is a thing this is where we're at. This is our experience of what it's like to be autistic.
This is how we see the world. This is what we want to contribute to the world. This is
what we feel like is a needed fit. And even actually one of my dreams is to write an actual
book in regard to that because I've always wanted to be a little bit of an author since I
was five. So most of mine so hopefully I get there one day, but yeah, that's the big thing is like I
said, you just know one person who's autistic it doesn't mean you know the entire
community of autistic people. Because like I said, everybody stories is different.
Everybody's experience is different. So that's how I can relate to others in a way within
the empathy in regards because it's like everybody's going through their own story.
Everybody's going through their own experiences. So like if somebody were to tell a story of like
these decisions that they've made and these choices that they've made, and this is what
happened and everything like that. It's almost like if I were to be in their shoes, more than likely
do the exact same thing. They just did it because of where their mindset and everything was
that at that time. That's why the things plan panned out the way that they were supposed to.
Pouria 52:44
Yeah, it kind of goes back to that statement. If you've met an autistic person, you've met
an autistic person. Yeah, you're absolutely right. But it's great. I think that people a lot
more people are getting exposure. I think that's the important part.
Danielle 53:00
And there's a lot of autistic people that want to do that because of course that's a big
thing that really needs to be stressed. So I think that's a good thing. And I know a lot of
people aren't like me where they're really good when it comes to media content and
being able to be open within like just media and social media and everything like that
because not everyone is able to or they're comfortable with it, or anything like that, but I
feel like I'm one of the ones that can relate to the ones that are the, you know, the
neurotypical and the ones that are actually like, in the you know, like where I am, like
within the disability community, the autism community like everything within those
communities, I feel like I'm a good connection for both. And that's where I let my shine

through where I can be that person where it's like, okay, I can put things in terms where,
like I said, I'm a normal human being who's not attend, they can relate to me being
Pouria 53:58
excellent. Alright, to end off Danielle. Is there anything that you want to leave our listeners with?
Um,
Danielle 54:04
the fact that I think when it comes to autism, it's something that should be embraced and
not discriminated against because like I said, like I said, in a way yes, everybody says it's a
superpower but it like it is to a degree and I feel like there's still a lot to learn by
everyone. A lot, a lot, a lot to learn within that regard. Because like I said, there's people out
there that you didn't even know who's autistic. I know Temple Grandin is a big person on the
autism community that's actually created the you know how we deal with the post. He fell about
they get killed. So like I said, there's good within how those people are a big impact to our lives.
Like even I don't know Albert Einstein. Apparently there was a thing that he could be artistic.
Like there's a lot of people that created and those inventions if it wasn't for our minds and for
who we are as individuals, like, we wouldn't be here. Because it's almost like we need to find
our purpose within life as to why we're here and I feel like that's a big thing that needs to
be voiced than anything. So like I said, I want everyone to just be accepted for who they
are, embrace who you are, and be able to, like I said, just go through this life in a way
where you're just like, like I said, Everybody's on a journey to love themselves where
they are and learn about themselves. And I think this is a part of it.
Pouria 55:31
That was that was very well put. Great, thank you so much for giving us your time today. And
you've had some wonderful insight and has a really interesting discussion. So thank you for
joining us.
Danielle 55:42
I greatly appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.