[00:00:52] Xiaoqing: Hi, I'm Xiaoxing and welcome back to the latest episode of All Things EAP. In this episode, Alex Runchman, lecturer in EAP at University College Dublin will be exploring the topic of discipline specific vocabulary with four amazing guests who all work in different satellite campuses of UCD in China. Together, they discuss how EAP teachers and subject lecturers can help students navigate complex terminology across diverse disciplines, and how collaboration and context can make technical vocabulary more meaningful and accessible. Happy listening. 
[00:01:38] Alex Runchman (he/him): Hello everybody. My name is Alex Runchman. I am a lecturer in English for Academic Purposes at University College Dublin, and I'm responsible for coordinating the EAP modules at Beijing Dublin International College, Chang Chang'an-Dublin College and Guangzhou Dublin International College in China. these are all ucds, joint partnership colleges. And each of these colleges teach different disciplines. in Beijing it's finance, software engineering, internet of things engineering and electrical, and information engineering. At Chang'an Dublin International College of Transportation, it is civil engineering, automotive engineering and transport. City planning and environmental policy. And in GDIC, which is a partnership with South China Agricultural University, it's biological sciences. Food quality and safety and horticulture. And I've deliberately mentioned all of those different disciplines because today I'm going to be talking with four colleagues from across the colleges about discipline-specific vocabulary Some of the challenges in teaching this terminology extended definitions and concepts and also some of the approaches that teachers and lecturers take to address them. I'm going to ask my panel to very briefly introduce themselves.
[00:03:12] Huang Zixia (he/him): Yes. My name is Zixia Huang and I'm an assistant professor in the School of Biology and Environmental Science at University College Dublin. And I'm teaching three modules in the Guangzhou Dublin International colleges: the Origin of Diversity of Life for the first year and Animal Biology, and Quantitative Skills for the Biologists for the second year.
[00:03:36] Alex Runchman (he/him): Andy, would you like to introduce yourself?
[00:03:39] Andy Merton (he/him): Hello there. My name is Andrew Merton, but can all call me I am a second year EAP lecturer at Beijing uh, Dublin International College.
[00:03:48] Alex Runchman (he/him): Thanks. And then we have Joy Chu.
[00:03:50] Joy Chu Ming-shi (she/her): Hello, my name is Joy. I'm also an EAP teacher, same as Andy, and my students are also second year civil engineering students. 
[00:03:59] Alex Runchman (he/him): Okay. Thanks very much, joy. And finally we have Sally, who is also an EAP teacher at CDIC. I think Sally's connection is, is playing up a little bit, so we'll, we'll ask her to introduce herself a little later.
 Zixia, Let's start with you. So you are going to give us the lecturer's perspective on the issue of discipline specific terminology. Maybe you could begin by outlining some of the challenges you think your students encounter when you talk about terminology in your biological sciences. And also your quantitative skills lectures. What, what are the main challenges you think your students encounter in this context?

[00:04:46] Huang Zixia (he/him): Yes. I think it's very challenging for Chinese student to take these modules because these modules are full of terminologies. What I observed during a lecture is that when I talk about some new concept or new terminologies, students, lose focus because they don't know what I'm talking about for this slide I think it's really very hard for students to stay focused for the entire lecture. So that's what I found.
[00:05:14] Alex Runchman (he/him): So partly a focus concentration issue, but I imagine you probably have situations where the students are quite familiar with the definitions or terms in Chinese but haven't encountered them previously in English. So does that create a slightly different situation?
[00:05:34] Huang Zixia (he/him): Yes. Because I also went through the high school in China, so I kind of know the content of biology they have learned or they have built up before college. So for the terminologies and I think for students are familiar with in Chinese of some terminologies, but. But obviously when it comes to English, they may have no ideas.
What I usually did is I will put some Chinese terminology just after, the English terminology on my slide. So at least my students have idea what I'm talking about, what area I'm talking about But obviously at college you're gonna learn lots of new things that you never learned in in high school. So in that case I will stay on the slide for longer and maybe explain the terminology to the full level, and also I may provide some additional link for students if they want to know in depth about the, about the concept or terminologies. 
[00:06:33] Alex Runchman (he/him): So it sounds like you're using some kinds of mediation strategies, whether that's providing direct translation of more familiar terms or kind of links with more detailed explanations to more complex terminology. Do you find things like glossaries or word lists effective?
[00:06:53] Huang Zixia (he/him): I think it helped a little bit. And,before the lecture, I would provide a list of terminologies that in the, in this lecture so that student can preview beforehand. But I'm not sure the proportion of students will do the preview before the lecture. But at least I found that after I start using a strategy of putting the Chinese terminologies on my slide, I feel like my students stay more focused compared to before. I think that help a little bit and at least they don't lose interest 10 minutes after lecture and also they know what I'm talking about and they have some additional reading materials after lecture if they want to know more. So that's my experience and my strategy that can improve the teaching and learning experience.
[00:07:41] Alex Runchman (he/him): And of course you, you have the advantage a Chinese speaker. So how do your colleagues who don't speak Chinese deal with this issue? Is this something you discuss with them?
[00:07:54] Huang Zixia (he/him): Yes, we actually exchange a lot after the class and think the terminology or English barrier is the primary obstacle for student to learn the lecture. And I remember some of my colleagues also provide a list of terminologies and they translate the English words to Chinese and let me review it to make sure it is okay and put on their slides. think we have similar strategies, and this is very common to our Chinese students that, the language barrier.
[00:08:25] Alex Runchman (he/him): And do you discuss any of these issues with the EAP teachers at GDIC?
[00:08:31] Huang Zixia (he/him): Yes. Yes. And we actually have a chat with some of my colleagues and see how we can do this better. Outside the biological lectures, they may get used to some of the terminologies beforehand. The English classes will talk about certain topics for each class, but I found also a little bit challenging because the terminology in my lecture are very, very subject specific, and it's not kind of as general as climate change about the food safety, it's very specific. It's at molecular level. So we talked about this, but we didn't find the effective way how we can integrate those terminologies into the English class. Unfortunately.
[00:09:14] Alex Runchman (he/him): I think that raises a really interesting point. our context is quite a specific one, but probably not unfamiliar in that we are based in, in China and that we are teaching undergraduate students in the first and second year of their degree programs. So students often come in at a quite foundational English level, but also very new to some of the subject matter that they're going to study and their degrees as well.
So it's not like we have postgraduate students where you can already assume a very high. Level of technical knowledge, for example. And so that leaves us a challenge of moving from English for general academic purposes into a much more specific field by the end of the second year. I think there is that issue of, in learning about sustainable development goals, for example, as our students do in the first year, how how general that may seem to subject specific lecturers like yourself.
[00:10:20] Huang Zixia (he/him): Yeah.
[00:10:24] Alex Runchman (he/him): you mentioned Joy, that you have a background yourself in environmental engineering. so has that helped you when teaching, writing and speaking to engineering undergraduates at CDIC?
[00:10:38] Joy Chu Ming-shi (she/her): Thanks Alex. I thought I would be able to integrate more easily into this work, into this job, but I realized that our goal is not to teach them dense technical information and heavy writing, but our goal is for students to really understand the topics that they're writing about and speaking about and to present something that is difficult and an easy way to understand so that they can have a clearer understanding of the topic for themselves and also for them to be able to reach a larger audience. So in this context, I realized that my background with environmental engineering didn't really translate into helping them learn words better or to write even better definitions or maybe reference stronger evidences, but I found that my background in environmental engineering was more helpful in creating a more interesting and engaging context for the students to grapple with. Difficult topics of vocabulary and sentence structures and forming ideas. So I think that my background is helpful with lesson planning in particular.
[00:11:55] Alex Runchman (he/him): That's really interesting. All of rubric emphasize the, focus on writing for an educated but non-specialist audience.
[00:12:05] Joy Chu Ming-shi (she/her): Yes.
[00:12:06] Alex Runchman (he/him): And that's quite a fine balance to try to achieve demonstrating a level of technical understanding and ability to use the terminology, but then also to adapt that and explain it to the non-specialist, and that's why I think things like writing extended definitions require so much attention in EAP. So, how much subject specific knowledge do you think EAP teaches. Actually need, it's often a source of anxiety for new teachers in the field about how much should they know?
[00:12:41] Joy Chu Ming-shi (she/her): I think this is quite a tricky question and it really depends on the field that the EAP teacher might be going into. If it's something that is highly technical, like civil engineering and my students, they particularly focus on pavement design. And road design. those are the type of research articles that students will be reading, not even before they graduate undergrad, and they'll be reading it in third year, fourth year, and even in their second year. And so I think teachers should be prepared to, to learn these topics, but in terms of how prepared they should be going into the work, I don't actually think that it is really big, Obstacle for AP teachers? Primarily because we all have some sort of general knowledge on these topics, and I think our understanding of it is on the same level as the students. even for me, I wasn't that acquainted with pavement engineering specifically. My focus was on environmental engineering. And when I went into teaching my first year at CDIC, I found that students were really excited to explain what they learned. In their process of research. So we have one assignment in particular, which is for students to pick their own research topic and to write a research essay about it. And I found that the students were really excited when they found a topic that was interesting, 
And they get really excited explaining to me about what it is because before that they didn't really know what their. A major was even. So I don't think that EAP teachers really need to feel the stress to be an expert in the field before they go into it. I have a lot of other colleagues in our department that have backgrounds in literature analysis or politics or social science, and they're clearly not engineering based at all. But I think they do an amazing job at being willing, available, to learn about different topics, and even applying their own skills in literature analysis or politics and analytic skills to help the students. So I don't think EAP teachers should feel that fear, I guess, of having to learn a whole field before jumping into teaching the students.
[00:14:56] Alex Runchman (he/him): Okay, thanks Joy. I might just bring in here. Andy does does what Joy's been talking about, tally with your own experience.
[00:15:04] Andy Merton (he/him): so. I don't think that teachers in either the first or second year at any of the partnership colleges require specific knowledge of the major itself. Um, For me, and I dunno what the others think, there is in some ways an inherent. Not contradiction, but friction between the requirements of students to learn general academic words as engendered by Cox head uh, nation's academic word list.
And those terms and convocations that are specific to particular majors, the former can be viewed as necessary for the outcomes of the courses. But the latter I see as being desirable. And in that, I think there is that kind friction. If you know what I mean, uh, it's very, very difficult to cover both adequately in the limited time that we have.
I wonder if I can just pick up on Joy. You were talking quite a bit about motivation there, that actually, rather than assisting with the teaching of specific terminology, your background gave you an instinct for knowing perhaps what students would find interesting and engaging. Um, and you also suggested there that students being able to share their own. Knowledge with their EAP teacher could be a motivating factor. again, maybe you and Andy as well, if you'd like, would like to just comment on that a little bit more.
[00:16:38] Joy Chu Ming-shi (she/her): was interested in what you said about your background, perhaps helping in terms of motivation. So rather than specifically being an issue of what terminology or technical knowledge you have, being more about having a sense of what will students find interesting, if we look at this video on safety on construction sites, for example you think showing some knowledge of the specific discipline helps to motivate students?
[00:17:07] Alex Runchman (he/him): In terms of, well, the reasoning behind having a clear motivation in designing courses and lesson material is for the students to. Focus more on the skills that they are more familiar with. So in that case, it is really important to find relevant examples, and I do think that it is helpful. In knowing and understanding more about this topic to be able to find such media or examples.
Okay, great. Thanks. I might just come back to you mentioned Nation and Coxhead there, so maybe this is an opportunity to talk a little bit about word lists. I think we've been talking a little bit about how important it is to learn this terminology. 
noted that sometimes students are presented with vast word lists and asked to learn them but then find that they can't actually use that vocabulary. So Andy, what are your thoughts on helping students To turn their passive vocabulary into active. I'm perhaps thinking a little bit about Nation's four strands framework here, and moving from meaning focused input to meaning focused output, and then language focused learning, which is where the explicit teaching of word lists might be. Relevant then fluency development. But what are your thoughts on moving from passive to vocabulary and the role that word lists can play?
[00:18:49] Andy Merton (he/him): I briefly touch on what the difference between passive and active vocabulary are. Now according to Paul Nation in 1990, passive vocabulary refers to the ability to recognize a word when it's encountered whereas active vocabulary relates to the ability to write or use in spoken form the target Lexus um, at the necessary time, 
Academics and teachers have had different ideas. For example, CIE Melka has written that it's all to do with differences in degrees of familiarity with the language. in terms of the word lists, like the academic word list, they are really just a guideline that. An out of context selection of words that appear frequently in EAEP texts and presenting them to a student or a group of students as is, is not very useful.
It's just like a long list of information which they have to learn, which I think by itself is quite demotivating. So the challenge is to try and. Bring in key vocabulary that they need to learn, be it general or specific at appropriate times, and then build on that. And the key element here is to try and make reference to these words and bring them into activities um, on a regular basis consistently.
I think that what we as practitioners for example in the partnerships we only have uh, we only see the students twice a week for an hour and a half at a time. It's. Very difficult for us to actually teach an academic word list or even teach selections from it. But what we can do is we can encourage the students to behave more autonomously and work on this by themselves.
Um, And that's what generally I seek to do of, through a number of ways.
[00:20:54] Alex Runchman (he/him): Okay, so promotion of autonomous learning.
[00:20:57] Andy Merton (he/him): Yes.
[00:20:57] Alex Runchman (he/him): a little bit more specific here. I know that you've taught articles related to crowdfunding both finance and software engineering and wonder if you feel that you have to adapt your approach for finance students or for software engineering students.
[00:21:18] Andy Merton (he/him): You know, that's a really good question and Absolutely. For finance students, I think it's really a focus on the process of generating funds through crowdfunding. So the specialized vocabulary will come in there relating to the type of process they go through to secure funding and also talking about alternatives to crowdfunding as well, that helps bring in a different element of specialized vocabulary, whereas with the other three majors with software engineering, IOT and EIE, it's very uh, a focus on the projects themselves.
And what crowdfunding can do for inventors and entrepreneurs related to particular technical projects. So, yeah, I think you have to temper your vocabulary focus according to the major. Definitely.
[00:22:13] Alex Runchman (he/him): Okay. I'd now like to open a question up to all of you. Do you have any thoughts on AI? Can it help with discipline specific vocabulary learning, or is it likely to result in over reliance on direct translation, for example?
[00:22:30] Joy Chu Ming-shi (she/her): Artificial intelligence is a really easy answer that students can give in term in terms of how do we improve our English we can use AI to help us. I don't actually think that independent use of AI can help with the student's own vocabulary learning that much unless it is being scaffolded or Sort of assisted with teacher help. 
So I find that when they use discipline vocabulary learning through AI, it is quite hard for them to use it critically and effectively.
Maybe they can use it to translate a word and without checking the context of it, they'll just insert it into their writing or their speech. I think that AI is a very useful tool to help students to further their writing and speaking in particularly writing, because I find that a lot of students able to identify and specific words that needs translation maybe from Chinese, that they're used to, to English. Effectively use it maybe in an extended definition or to use it to emphasize a scope that they have. And so teachers in this case can come in to help them. Question their purposes for AI use, to help them to refine their prompts and to sort of enable them to use AI as a tool rather than just to, as a learning tool, as a tool to improve their writing rather than just as the answer to convert their writing into something that meets the so-called requirements that they think we're looking for.
[00:24:17] Alex Runchman (he/him): Okay, thanks. So when Andy is talking about trying to encourage students to learn vocabulary more autonomously, AI by itself not necessarily the solution. But if students have been trained to use it critically, it might be able to support that process. Right.
[00:24:35] Joy Chu Ming-shi (she/her): Right. Exactly.
[00:24:36] Alex Runchman (he/him): Andy, do you have any thoughts?
[00:24:37] Andy Merton (he/him): I tend to agree with what Joy just said. I think that you need to use AI in combination with other activities when learning vocabulary, not just general act, words, but also specialized terminology. I think it's very important to have them working on paper. Thinking in different ways, thinking in terms of visually as well.
But also AI does offer some advantages, not necessarily just AI in a search engine or AI as chat GPT or deep seek, but actual apps, which are. Ai powered. where you can actually put subject specific vocabulary into the mix.
You can input it via the AI assistant and it will then generate activities, a range of activities for you to participate in. To help consolidate that vocabulary and turn it from passive language into more active uh, words, which can be used. 
But I think that some apps in particular like memorize are very, very good for tailoring their vocabulary learning experience.
[00:25:52] Alex Runchman (he/him): Okay, thanks Andy.
 I think Sally is back with us. I'd like to ask you, Sally, specifically about listening. You teach students listening and reading, and I'm wondering if you've noticed any differences in students' vocabulary acquisition for listening compared to reading.
[00:26:15] Sally Ou Yali (she/her): The first thing I would like to talk about is the text analysis for reading the students can make notes or mark or do underlines or highlight the key terms and the circle, the transitional words and like, however, therefore these transitional words or signal words and which could help the students to build up the whole structure of the reading material.
But the students cannot make such kind of notes while they are listening. Yeah, and they cannot replay the part, which they didn't follow quite well, but in reading, they can do so therefore, the parts which are difficult or maybe for the difficult words, especially the discipline, specifically vocabulary, they can read it repeatedly and with the combination of the context, which could help them to have a better understanding of the new words. they cannot, replay, cannot pause. And also, they cannot see the pronunciation or the format of the text. So in, from the aspect of text, text analysis is quite difficult and different for the students to, acquire or understand the meaning of those vocabulary.
[00:27:38] Alex Runchman (he/him): So Vander Griftonand go note that often with listening, it's quite difficult to identify why an error or a mistake might occur. So I'm thinking of this year's example of mitochondria earlier, joy talking about aggregate. One of the challenges maybe trying to work out as a teacher. Is the student having trouble because they don't understand the terminology or because they can't identify word when it is pronounced?
[00:28:12] Sally Ou Yali (she/her): in my teaching I found that. Any students reported that some of the words they can understand when they see them, but they do not know the meaning or they couldn't recognize the words when they are listening to the those words. I think some of the students reflected on this and they told me that this could be the problem is that they are not very familiar with the pronunciation of these, especially discipline specific vocabulary because they are really with a long, they are really long and with a very different pronunciation. So the problem for them is to recognize the pronunciation and also the boundary.
Between the words, because in most cases these words are pretty long, and sometimes they could recognize these long words as like two or three words. But actually they are connected as one, like photo successes. They could, they recognize photo, but they couldn't recognize successes. 
[00:29:17] Alex Runchman (he/him): And does. Etymology help here? Like does, does recognizing that photosynthesis is a compound of photo, meaning light and synthesis that help or does that actually confuse students further? I, I ask that partly because my, my own experience of trying to teach vocabulary with reference to etymology hasn't always been as successful as I would like it to be. I've, I've often thought that this would sort of be logical and would help perhaps, particularly for Chinese learners who are familiar with the idea of compounding. Yeah. do you have any thoughts on that?
[00:29:55] Sally Ou Yali (she/her): Yes, actually. I did that in my class, telling the students about the prefixes and the suffixes and, helping them to understand the compound words. But the difficult, it's still more difficult in listening then that is in reading. And I think another reason could be the.
Input pace because in reading, the input pace could be controlled by the students. they can slow down for the difficult part and they can speed up like scheming and scanning for the easy part, and they can control the pace of reading. But in listening, they only have one chance or two chance, two times, of chances to listen to all the contents with the pace controlled by the speaker.
[00:30:45] Alex Runchman (he/him): But of course the students need to be able to identify those students spoken at a natural So you can't slow it down all the time.
[00:30:56] Sally Ou Yali (she/her): Yes. So that's the problem with the difficult words. So the input pace is a big problem for the students in listening. So I think speaking pace. Could be one of the reasons for the recognition of the difficult words, because for those words, they need time.
They need cognitive time to build connection between the meaning and, the sound of the words. And so the methodological perspective could be helpful, but it takes time. So I think this is not a problem of, compound words. I think it's a problem for every kind of words, and they need time to respond, to build connection between the meaning and the sound of the words.
 
Okay, thanks very much. I'd like to just zoom out a little bit before we finish off. Do students have a clear sense of why they need to learn vocabulary, these technical terms? Yeah, I think the students do understand that they need to learn those words, but I think it's just the difficulties, keep them at the back row. they think it's too difficult for them to learn those. Discipline specific vocabulary. They are all, I think most of the students are aware of the importance of the discipline specific vocabulary. but it's just the difficulties stand in the way for them to move forward.
[00:32:30] Alex Runchman (he/him): Okay, thanks. Thanks very much Sally. I think we've encountered a lot of interesting perspectives there from both the lecturer from EAP teachers teaching, writing and speaking and also there from the perspective of listening. But one thing that I'm very conscious of is that we can probably all work much more closely together. So as a coordinator, I often have meetings with the subject lecturers. I'm not sure if. Our teams of EAP teachers get enough opportunities to work closely with subject lecturers and vice versa. So I'd like to finish off really by asking all of you to comment on any ways that you think EAP teachers and subject lecturers could collaborate more effectively particularly with reference to this issue of subject specific vocabulary, but also more generally.
Zixia, maybe you'd like to start off, how do you think the EAP teachers could support you more?
[00:33:33] Huang Zixia (he/him): I think we have been discussing this when you mentioned do the student really need to get to know everything about all the terminologies? I think my answer is no. Because as a biologist, you're gonna encounter lots of species, species name. and it is not possible, even for me, it's not possible to remember or to recognize all the species name. But there are of course the core set of terminologies that, students should understand and comprehend and to achieve the learning outcome. And I think, If we can integrate, for example, a sales structure or, a mitochondrial or something.
Evolution because that's the base of biology. If we can integrate some of those words or concept into the English class, I think that would be extremely helpful.
[00:34:20] Alex Runchman (he/him): Okay, thanks Zixia. Andy,
I do tend to agree. It's not about creating a list of specific terminology that the students need to learn as part of their English course to support their major studies. I think it's more about EAP lecturers and subject professors working together to help manage and minimize the load of specialist vocabulary.
[00:34:46] Andy Merton (he/him): it's more about strategizing than actually teaching during uh, lectures. it's about enlightening the students on how they can work themselves.
Okay, so again, maybe working together towards more student autonomy.
think it's very important not just to share and manage the number of specialist words and phrases that the students need to learn. I think it's more important for us to agree on strategies that will work well across their English classes and their major studies too.
[00:35:20] Alex Runchman (he/him): Okay. Thanks Andy. Joy, do you want to come in?
[00:35:23] Joy Chu Ming-shi (she/her): I also agree very much with Andy particularly with strategizing and it is really important that students can manage and feel confident about these vocabularies. themselves But when they go out into the field on their own, they're going to encounter outside of theirs. Topics that are crossovers with their own experiments and research. Equipped with the right skills to handle all of these different topic specific vocabulary and concepts.
[00:35:54] Alex Runchman (he/him): I think that's really interesting. I know a lot of the students in civil engineering at CDIC have been requesting modules on things like AI and programming that would take them into the domain of software engineering. So, you know, perhaps interdisciplinarity a kind of. Challenge to this idea of English for specific academic purposes because there's a lot of boundary crossing across all, all
[00:36:23] Joy Chu Ming-shi (she/her): It is definitely a challenge, but it's also an opportunity, I think, for the engineering writing field to expand. Previously they've been very information dense and that was what I was used to. But teaching this module has helped me to recognize really the worth and almost forcing sometimes our students to write for a non-specific audience. Because this can help them much more in their future when their major kind of dissolves into other majors and it breaks off into more cross-disciplinary fields.
[00:36:54] Alex Runchman (he/him): Okay, thanks. And Sally, do you have any final thoughts?
[00:36:58] Sally Ou Yali (she/her): Yes, I think cross disciplinary teaching could be very helpful for the teachers in, EAP and also for the subject teachers to get to know about how the English teachers are running their class. And also like the English teachers could be also, invited to the subject teachers' lectures to see how the subject teachers are running their class.
Or probably like, the subject teachers and the English teachers could collaborate for one class, like the demo class to see how, it could work for the students for a certain topic. And from the perspective of subject learning and also the language learning. So I think like the cross-disciplinary.
Collaboration could be very helpful for the teachers in two groups to understand and how they run their class and what could be the difficulties for the students when they are learning their subject classes and also the language and when we can. Discuss with each other how to solve these difficulties.
Yeah. Thanks very much. This is something I think that requires institutional support. That's a point that's been made in a recent article by By Too Good and Hale in the Journal of Learning Development in Higher Education is a willingness among EAP teachers and lecturers to work more closely together, and we need to find ways to overcome the obstacles to that, which I think are mainly time just finding a way around the time constraints.
[00:38:45] Alex Runchman (he/him): I think we have identified a number of addressing these challenges and strategies to approaching them. I hope that this discussion has been valuable to our listeners. I'm conscious we've been talking about the Chinese context specifically. But I hope that some of the points would be transferable across other contexts as well. So finally, I'd just like to thank all of the contributors. Zixia. Thank you Andy and Sally. Thank you very much.
[00:39:18] Laura Richards (she/her): Thank you so much for listening to this episode We really hope you've enjoyed it and that you've found something interesting or useful in it, and we hope that you can join us for the next episode. So if you'd like to share a comment, suggestion or an insight into something that we've talked about, please send us an email or voice note at podcast@baleap.org. You can also get in touch through our YouTube channel, @AllThingsEAP.
Take care. Bye-bye.