[00:00:00] Introduction --- Chris: Welcome to What Kind of Man Are You? Degan: We are living in a moment where the ground is shifting under our feet. Politics, identity, even basic humanity, it all feels up for grabs. As men, we're asking, what's our role in all this? Chris: Time to tear up the old playbook. Do we step back or we finally reckon with what it means to be a man who actually gives a damn? Degan: This is What Kind of Man Are You? The podcast where we untangle masculinity, privilege, and the messy work of showing up. I'm Degan Davis, a therapist, writer, and author of the Poetry Collection. What Kind of Man Are You? Chris: And I am writer and producer, Chris Garbutt. Each episode we'll tackle the big questions. How do we be better allies? How do we confront fear, in the world and in ourselves? And what's our responsibility when the stakes are this high? Degan: No easy answers. Just real talk about shame, courage, and the small acts that aren't so small, like standing up when it counts. Chris: So whether you're here to rethink masculinity, fight for justice, or just feel a little less alone in the chaos, let's get into it. Degan: // [00:01:15] Memories of The Tragically Hip --- Degan: This whole second series, we've been talking about movies and we're gonna talk about Long Time Running, the documentary about the Tragically Hip. And I think for this one, we're, you know, we, we always come at these conversations around men, around masculinity. I think we're gonna start talking about the movie, but also talking about our memories of the Hip and, and just kind of what that band has meant to us and weave that into the documentary. [00:01:43] --- Degan: Chris, do you remember the first time, and, and for those of you who don't know, I don't know if there could be anyone, if maybe you're outside of Canada. The Tragically Hip are probably one of the more seminal rock bands in Canada. I remember actually being in Cambodia in 1999 going into a bar inin Pnom Penh And the Hip Trouble at the Hen House. It was playing. And yeah, it, it's a great album, isn't it? And, the bartender had all the, all the Hip CDs at that time. They're an incredibly Canadian band. They tell, Canadian stories and they're, they've stayed here. That's where they've, you know, that's where they've got their, they had their incredible fan base. Of course, a couple of years ago, their lead singer and sort of principal songwriter, although they took credit for all the songs Gord Downey died of, of brain cancer and the Longtime Running movie is about the, the final tour. And so yeah, we're going to talk about the Hip. Chris, do you remember the first time you heard the Hip? Chris: Well, I can't, you know, where I was and, I can't remember that, I definitely song I heard, which was Blow at High Dough, Degan: Yeah. Chris: Which is still a mean, I don't know. probably in the high double digits in terms of how many songs I love by the Tragically Hip. I don't even know if that song is in my top 10, but Even, even then, I don't think that's their first album, but it's, Degan: Oh, I think it's her second. Yeah. Yeah. Chris: And, there are two things about that. [00:03:25] --- Chris: It's innovative rock and roll, just the way it sounds, but it's also sort of a driving rock, that particular song. And, but also the poetry of the lyrics you know, very, very unexpected but also, true, and you know, it's the first line is they shot a movie once in my hometown. And what a scene setting first line, right? I don't actually react this way to most music I hear. I usually takes me a while to sort of warm up, but Tragically Hip: instant liking. Degan: You know, it's interesting when, oh, in terms of first memory yeah, I mean it was, I think it was also a Blow at High Dough with that that bass riff at the opening, you know. And you know, or, or that, or New Orleans is Sinking. But that album, you know, I think the first song I really took in, because, you know, I wanna say something about the lyrics, like, I think they were always a band that had lyrics that were that could be a little abstract. Like you wouldn't, you wouldn't know, wouldn't always know exactly what they're talking about. But yet they had certain songs which were very clear story, like songs like 38 Years Old, you know, the, the kind of tragic story of the family and sung from the perspective of the brother and he's telling the story of their sister getting raped and their brother killing the man who did it and being in prison and staying in prison and not having you know, never kissed a girl, right? He's 38 years old, never kissed a girl. I love the sound of the others, but that was the first song when I took in the story. I had that feeling of like, I grew up in a small town. I had the feeling of that where the eyes watch you like your history in know, in Toronto, in a big city, you can disappear into anonymity and you cannot in a small town. And I think that's part of what made the Hip like they got that small town feel, you know? But then you think about some of, some of the lyrics and some of the other songs, you know, you, it's like, I was talking to a friend today on the phone and we were saying like, he's definitely weird, right? Gord Downey was definitely weird. Like, and yet it wasn't weird for its own sake. And it wasn't weird in a way of like not grounded. He had his own artistry. Of course he had his own sense of the music and yet, and he would say things, I'm like, I don't quite know what you mean, but I like it. And I think that touched a lot of people and as he went on, the songs sometimes be still, I think they became even more on that little abstract side where you could take lines out of it and be like, this is incredible. You know,one of my favourite is, no dress rehearsal, this is our life. I had an old partner of mine, we used to just look at each other and say, no dress rehearsal. It's like, and we would just say it about what you're gonna risk, what you're gonna, you know, so they, there there are these moments that are absolutely clear and I think then there are these sort of painted impressionist words that you can sort of make a lot out of. Chris: Absolutely. And, and even maybe we should talk a bit about the movie itself, because we could, we could easily Degan: Yeah. We get lost Chris: the Degan: the Hip. Chris: Butthis is the, as you said, this is their last tour. [00:06:47] The Final Tour --- Chris: Gord Downey already has brain cancer. So it's, it's partly a candid look at, you know, backstage getting ready, going on stage, also rehearsal and everything. But in the context of the fact that he had been diagnosed with this brain cancer before the concert tour. So he had to have, a very serious operation, which led to him not remembering his songs. Degan: Yeah. Chris: So he had to kind access his memory. He had toremember the lyrics. He had to remember the tunes and, they know that he's got this terminal brain cancer, they decide to do a cross Canada tour. They don't even know if Gord Downey's gonna make it through this. And of course he does. It's quite famous and the final concert was broadcast nationally. Which you and I can both talk about, I'm sure. And each band member and also some of their management and even the costume designer is interviewed and I think his costumes for the tour were pretty important. And hearing Gord Downey himself, 'cause he's interviewed quite extensively around you know, that first rehearsal where it's like, oh my God, are we gonna, is this even possible? And then slowly hearing about how he picked it up and, the, the clips of the concerts, he was on his game, right? Like, he Degan: Yeah. Chris: he wasn't, I, you know, you and I have both seen the Tragically Hip at, at a different time. He's, he was always wild on stage, you know, he was a little less physically wild, but still kind of had that kind of mischievousness and, Degan: Yeah. Chris: and humour, but also really deep emotion all at once. And, you know, that's one of the things that's great about this band. Like they're, they're, if they say it in the movie, they're this. You know, bar band essentially, but they're also poets, you know? Degan: Yeah, and I think the way it's set up. That whole series of concerts that, and one of the, I forget who it, but someone says in the movie, like, it's rare that you, you, you, it's rare that you get to say goodbye to your fans. I mean, sometimes we have a classic, oh, this will be our last tour, but if the band members are, well, they can do another law score, right? Didn't the Eagles do like 10 or something? Or, you know, The Who, right. Chris: I remember their final concert in 1984. Degan: And this really was the final concert, and you're set up at the beginning of the film, hearing the interview with his surgeon, who then talks about like, we are. The very first time he listened to, and I think it was the same album, right? In this and Blow it. High Dough being the first song. And, and just like that moment of this, probably he was like a kid then, you know, going before he is gone to medical school and then going in and actually operating. So you have this whole sense of you're watching this tour, you're watching this goodbye. [00:10:11] National Grief --- Degan: I mean, I was, of course I had my eye on the band and watching Gord Downey, but just on, on the audience, you know, there were so many shots of the audience and in that way, I. It was, it was like a goodbye. It was like a, a celebration of life, you know, a celebration of Canada. Like it's, it was remarkable. I think it really, really, really succeeded. And I mean, I had to turn it off a couple of times, you know, and I was, I was with watching it again with my friend this morning and I had it on and he literally got up and is like, I can't, I can't, like, I can't listen right now, you know? And, yeah. So it's a grief. It's, it's a shared grief, which is really rare to have as a country and to get to do it together like that. Chris: Everybody. Everybody in the audience knew all of the words to all of the songs. And it was, it was the closest thing we had to a national religion that year. These are the hymns of our country in a sense. Degan: The garage hymns, you know, the, the barbecue, the backyard barbecue hymns while you're drinking you know, whatever. Chris: And,they really did dig deep into Canadian nostalgia. You know, you've got, you've got 50 Mission Cap about Bill Barilko Degan: Barilko. Chris: And the, the wild coincidence of his last goal. His last goal he ever scores, wins the Leafs a cup, that's a line from the song, and then he disappears on a fishing trip and. And they Degan: They never win another. Chris: what was it, 1962, the year he was discovered, Degan: Yeah, yeah. Chris: you know, Degan: Yeah. It, it's classic. Chris: This is Canadian mythology being built. Right, Degan: what I liked as much as that, you know, like I, I love that, but I love that he talks about putting the hockey card between the spokes, right? And to make Chris: No. Degan: The wait no, no. In his cab. Chris: A different song? Degan: No. You know what I, I always mix this up. He No tell you, tell me. You tell the story, The song is called 50 Mission Cap. Right. So right? Chris: He says I stole this from a hockey card. Which again, Degan: Yeah, Chris: I mean, you know, we're writers. That is great writing because it's just like we, we as Canadians know that experience, Degan: Yeah. Chris: that he he keeps tucked up under his 50 mission cap. So, and of course a 50 mission cap. I, I'd have to look that up. I don't even know what that is, but I assume it's some sort of military thing you get a cap after going out on 50 missions. I don't know. Degan: That's so funny in my head. You're totally right, Chris. And you know what? In my head it's, I think it's, you're right. It's just the mentioning of, I stole this from a hockey card and I was thinking about what we did with hockey cards, which was put them like, kind of shove them in so they would get between the spokes and make it sound like you were driving a motorbike. With your bike. That's, I was mixing that up, but I think just the mention of a hockey card and small town is simply so Canadian in itself. And you're right. 50 Mission Cap. We'll have to find out. I, I thought that might have been just like, the hat he wore that he's gone on so many adventures on and so many missions, but it probably has war reference. Can I ask. ask you then Chris: Mm-hmm. Degan: tell me another favourite song? [00:13:48] Favourites and Legacy --- Degan: You know, a a couple of songs why don't we go back and forth and share ones that really mean something to us? And we can, if they make a, an appearance in the movie, great. But, Chris: Well, certainly so I'll, I'll say that my favourite album, as I mentioned, is, Trouble at the Hen House, I would say that my favourite songs are... it's so hard to choose, but because that's my favourite album, because I just sort of feel like every single song is a no skip. Right? So, it starts with a song called Gift Shop it starts with this kind of moody guitar sound. The beautiful lull, the dangerous tug, and you just sort of feel, literally feel tugged into this song. And so it's, it's both poetically beautiful. But then, you know, it becomes a bit of a rock song. It's, I would Gift Shop on that album. And, Degan: is on that album. Chris: Ahead by a Century is on that album which, which really feels so these are, these are a little bit less Canadiana. They have a Canadian feel because they are the Tragically Hip. But I feel like it's a more introspective kind of but also very imagistic. You know, one of my favourite songs on that album is called Don't Wake Daddy, can I just read you the opening Degan: Please, please. Chris: Sled Dogs after dinner closed their eyes on the howling wastes. Kurt Cobain reincarnated si and licks his face. Then they drift past strips of Serengeti and the gates of Sleepy Hollow too. You can pause and wonder. They paused in wonder and yeah, I paused in wonder too. It's just so imagistic, you know, Kurt Cobain as a reincarnated sled dog, you know, Degan: lick. Chris: Linking his face. If it weren't for these lyrics, they'd just be another Canadian bar band, you know? Oh the Hundredth Meridian will, will and what is the first line of that? Me debunk and American myth and take my Degan: My life in my hands. Right? Beautiful. And that whole kind of monologue about get Ry Cooter to sing my eulogy just the way it builds and builds is incredible. The atmosphere of it. And you know, I think what I wanted to say, I talk a little bit more about my favourite songs, but I think what I wanna say too is it's that contrast too of like, you know, the Kirk Cobain reincarnated with this incredible sort of, these incredible rock hooks underneath and really compelling you know, just like it, they are still a rock band, you know? And, to have them balance. To be able to go into the territory of dreams, reincarnation you know, a lot of vulnerable territory stories with such a, like a, a driving rock hook or, or just like a really compelling riff is I don't know, is just so refreshing. To feel, to feel that much. And I think you do that with great rock bands like Pearl Jam, you know, has that, and Nirvana had that. But in terms of, I, I think one of my favourite songs of all time, and it's a, it's a tragic one, is Nautical Disaster. And, and, and what I love about that is the form of the song because it's written as a letter, you know, it's the, the man who was on this lifeboat that could not take others that were in the water that they had to leave behind. And, he's haunted by this and he's singing it, and the music has that brooding rock power to it. And it builds and builds and, and it's also just heartbreaking. But, the lines where he says things like, he talks to who he's writing to, you know, any, anyway, Susan, you know, he speaks to her in the song. It's feverish, right? He's, he's been haunted by this, and he's sharing this with this woman, Susan, right? He says, any way, Susan, if you like, our conversation is as faint as a sound in my memory as those fingernails scratching on my hull, and then the guitar comes in with the grief and still kind of powers through it. It's just an incredibly inventive song and that he climbs so deeply inside. this story. I think that's the one that tugs at my heart the most. Chris: It's, it's amazing because every time I try to think of my favourite, you know, I'll be like. Well, there's there's like oh, what's that one? It gets so sticky down here. Degan: Little Bones. Chris: Little Bones, New Orleans is Sinking. And even Twist My Arm, Degan: Locked in the Trunk of a Car. Chris: So I wanna talk about that album for a second because Degan: Yeah, Chris: I really think that that was the one that cemented them as kind Degan: I agree. Chris: their I don't, I don't know that if that it's their best one. It's hard to pick a best one. But when Locked in the Trunk of a Car came out, people were just like, what the hell are we hearing? 'Cause those were some imagistic and wild storytelling lyrics and going from I don't know how old I am. I've got what in my belly? What is it? Degan: It's based on the Quebec crisis right in 70 and the murder of Pierre LaPorte. Yeah, Chris: Oh. Degan: They don't know how old I am. They found armour in my belly from the 16th century conquistador I think they don't know how old I am. They found armour in my belly. Passion out of machine revving tension. Chris: So this is like a he's doing some historical allusions, but Degan: Yeah. Chris: know, morning broke out the backside of a truck stop, end of a line, a real rainbow likening, luck stop where you could say, I became chronologically fucked up. Put 10 bucks in just to get the tank topped off. Suddenly we're right on the ground. I remember when that song came out and was kind of the talk of the town as a, as a song and, and you know, then that 50 Mission Cap is on that one. Wheat Kings, well, I wanna get to Wheat Kings. Degan: Could we just stay with this, this, this one for a minute? This, this, because I remember seeing them. It was kind of a Lollapalooza you know, type concert in Barrie, I think where I, where I saw them. You remember one of those around like 80. Maybe 90, 90 or 91. Yeah. And when they did Locked in the Trunk of a Car, you know, the end, he, he screamed, let me out. I mean, he did an extended monologue that actually reminded me of something like, like the Grateful Dead didn't do that with lyrics, but they did it musically, right? They, they would go off and they would take a song and see where it, where it went. And he did that lyrically there. And he was, you know, kind of ranting almost as if, you know, he was in the trunk of this car or whatever. However you want to see the meaning from the historical piece of this, you know, kidnapped labour minister or or just like, you know, something, some metaphoric place of being stuck. I mean, 'cause I think you can see both. But when he was screaming this, let me out, let me out. And this long extended, you know, monologue, I mean the, the frenzy that, that the went through the crowd was incredible. I think that's one of those examples again, of this is obviously based on reports of this 1970 FLQ crisis but you feel it outside of that. You kind of feel the passion of something. And he even says in it like, it's better for us if you don't understand. I really think that's true. You cannot always put your finger on these lyrics and say this. But yet I trust them, and I trust the emotion in them. And that's kind of cool, right? There's not a lot of bands where I can say, it's sort of like when you look at some kind of Picasso and say like, okay, you know, like I see this cubist piece here, or whatever it is, and I don't quite get it, but, but I get that it's a sort of sense of, of consciousness or a way of perceiving the world. And I think there's a little bit of that in there, in the midst amidst of the rock songs. And I keep going back to it, but I love that about this band. Chris: And I think that's such an important line because it's not just better when he says It'll be better for us if you don't understand, I kind of think like it would be better for the song if you just brought your own meaning to it. Although I do, I remember once, and I think he was being a little again, mischievous here he said that the song was actually a metaphor for being stuck in a bad relationship. And, the thing is, Degan: There you go. It can be, we can, we can make it what we want. Right. It can be stuck in a bad job. It can be stuck in this fascistic you know, North American landscape. Yeah. Yeah. Chris: And, so I think this song came out, what this album came out, 91, 92, like I think for Canada. This was the beginning of the nineties, really. Degan: 92. Yeah. Yeah. Chris: So I love this song. It may not be a hundred percent my favourite song, on the album. But this whole album, again, a no skip album. it's very, very hard to pick favourites. Talked about 50 Mission Cap that was on this album, but just to talk about their staying power Wheat Kings is probably today one of their most popular songs. and we know this song to be about the falsely accused Milgarad, who was put in jail for a very long time and released after, I don't even know how long. I think it was over 20 years, wasn't it? Degan: A long time. Yeah. Chris: Again, beautiful first line sundown on the Paris of the Prairie, but what's interesting to me is at the time when that album came out, that song was a deep cut, right? Like people weren't talking about that song. It was just another one of the songs on the album. I mean, some people who are like, really. Into it be like, no, no, this is the best song on the album. But it didn't have, like, right now I think of that song as kind of their signature song almost. Degan: Yeah. Chris: But I think that's since that time, which says a lot about power of their music and, and the depth to which they go. Degan: So, we've strayed from the movie and maybe before we take a break and then, you know, talk a little bit about, what we can extrapolate from the movie and them thinking about men masculinity in our, our usual, you know, piece. Chris: Is Degan: Yes. And we've, we, I mean, the Hip have sort of like, they've they've hypnotized us. I'm just like, you know, the, the music is so powerful. The the lyrics are so powerful. I just kind of let myself be drawn, you know, into this conversation. But I think I just wanna say for the movie again, I love that it's on (CBC) Gem and you can watch it for free. That's amazing. And I love too, that the final show was ,broadcast the final concert. And I remember my daughter at the time I think she was about eight or nine, and I remember saying she was ready to go to sleep. And I said, let's stay up and watch. And we watched an hour of it and I told stories about what the songs meant and we talked about Gord and this being his likely, his final performance and everything. And I saw, watching the movie, there were some younger folk in the crowd, that were singing along. I dunno, I just love, that. So yeah, that's, that's my take. Good. Go and see it. It's good.And you will likely not be dry eyed at the end. Chris: Well, do you wanna take a quick break and we'll come back and talk a little bit more about the masculinity of the Tragically Hip. Degan: Absolutely. [00:26:28] The Hip's Masculinity --- Degan: We're back. You may have noticed that both Degan and I are big fans of the Tragically Hip and we are not a music podcast. We are actually a masculinity podcast, and perhaps it's time we talked about why we chose this particular movie to review. Some of the masculinity themes we thought were like really coming out of that. what do you think Degan were, what were your thoughts around this? I think hearing him interviewed in the movie and there's a moment where, he's facing his death, right? He knows that. And he's a bit shaken, but he's also, he's he's coming back for this tour and he's got that mischievous mischievousness in his eye, and he, I think he balances this kind of real honesty with also this kind of of rockstar persona, right? He allows himself to be vulnerable in a way. Yet, it's not gushy either, right? It's like these little moments. And there was one where he is talking about his favourite music and he's, he is talking about, this is after the operation, and he's in the car, he is going for chemotherapy treatment and he's talking about, in the car listening to music, who I think his brother who's driving him. And and playing, all this music. And one of the bands he mentions is the Bee Gees. And he is you're not supposed to love the Bee Gees, but I just love them. And so he's, it's always he's always ready just to say, yeah. All of the things. And I think what came out so strongly in the movie was the incredible affection, incredible love, and this band were his family, in many ways. So you're seeing at the end him do his thing, wear his incredible clothes, the hat and this very shiny silver or blue sparkling pants, that he's and. Chris: Different for every show. Degan: Different for every show. And he's into it and he's, and he is also making fun. He is like, what do you think of this hat? He is, he just he's a performer. He loves it. And you also see him, he's hugging the stage manager woman, he's probably known for so long and his band mates before the show's going on. And he's kissing him on the cheek and he's brushing against their lips and he is just, and he's just full of love, and I think I've almost never seen that in rock bands or almost anywhere. And I just loved seeing it. It just felt he's not afraid to just say, I love you, and show it. And I love that. Chris: He's describing it in voiceover and they show before one of the shows he almost like they're lined up to give him a hug and a kiss right. And he says I just I don't care I just said into each one of their ears, I love you so goddamn much. Degan: I was saying to you before we started recording I just feel like they're men you can't deny they're masculine but they offer a way of being a man that doesn't force you into any kind of box or stereotype. They just are the authentic selves And I felt that about every single member of that band It wasn't just Gord Downey he's the flashy one and he's the one who got the most attention obviously partly as lead singer and partly cause of what was going on. Like each of them they just they started out as long-haired rock band guys and they continued they made a whole career out of it. They never went to higher education. They're from Kingston so they're not small town boys they're like they're from eastern Ontario, not like elitists or anything but at the same time they're totally themselves it's so inspiring to me. I even feel that in their music seeing the movie and just seeing how they could relate to each other without any kind of masculine guard and they're older so they weren't having groupies or anything but still they just felt like real dudes real good dudes. Yeah. And one thing that struck me too is, it was in the movie the band members, I think it's the lead guitar player is saying, we had each other, and Gord had the audience. And at one point Gord Downey said something like, I wanted to look into the face of every single person here. You know I was reminded, and this is very different, obviously, artistically, but I was reminded with the final shows of Leonard Cohen. He did some tours when his manager mismanaged his money and he had to go back, Leonard Cohen and did a bunch of tours, two tours, I think. Anyway, I saw both of him on both of those, and there was so much gratitude. And now he wasn't dying that way, but he was older and he was coming back after a time and there was so much gratitude, and I think this was different. He was grieving, but that sense of, I wanna look in the eye of every person. There's something there about the openness of that to actually allow himself to give his performer self to Canada in that way, to these people and saying, I want to connect with him and that, and there's something too I think about he's a performer. He loves this role. He was good at it, and he shared it in a way, and there's something different about that, about being on stage and loving the limelight but actually really including yourself and looking at the people. And I think the band knew that 'cause they said they, they were the people that supported him through, we supported each other and he was supported by the audience. And I just love that. Chris: We'd never felt spoken down to by the Hip. But we you know how sometimes you outgrow music because it's like, you loved it as a kid, but you heard it too much. I never outgrew the hip. I lost touch with them with some of their later albums. If I ever had people over and I didn't know what kind of music to play, I'd just choose the Tragically Hip 'cause who hates the Tragically Hip? I'm sure someone out there does. But but there was a real sense of, when you talked about giving his persona to the whole audience. It made me think of an interview I heard with Diana Ross who said, it's not music I'm giving when I perform, it's love and I really feel that about especially that you know that in this movie, that last concert, hard to watch because, he has terminal cancer and everything. But he's still like wearing these, this goofy costume and he's still being, less energetic but still being that kind of wild persona on stage. And, I don't know if it was the last song, but it was certainly towards the end, the song Grace Too. Degan: It's a very beautiful song and at the end he starts screaming Help. And it's just the look on his face is a little bit intense, but also a little, I feel like I almost saw a smirk as well, and it's it's both very I remember when I saw him perform it on TV and I was just like, my heart felt both I felt both very full and very sad at the same time. And that Help, I almost felt was he asking for help or was he saying help each other.I don't think he was asking for help. I think he was getting everything, being up there. I think he was getting, is there any more healing that you can get to end your career by than being, like how many times he would pass the microphone over? He would gesture the microphone toward the crowd and they would sing back and forth. I think he was getting everything. That's a curious song. I was just reading about the lyrics today. That Grace Too, because supposedly it's based on a movie. And the beginning, it's very much in the persona of someone who's like. What's the opening line? Chris: He said I'm fabulously rich. Come on, Degan: just lets go. She bit her lip. Geez I don't know. Like it's, and it's supposed to be a movie about a pair of lovers that, that, murder that someone else, maybe a previous lover, and then hide the body and all that kind of stuff. I don't know, like he's a he's, there's personas all over the place, just like Bowie, just like Tom Waits, you sing from that persona. And as well as, maybe some songs are more intimate than others. Bobcaygeon is another one we haven't even talked about, but that feels. Chris: So incredibly, like you can just I can't come out, Gord must have been driving back, listening to Willie Nelson, in the car as the sun's coming up. But there's still a persona in it. Bobcaygeon, Along with Wheat Kings, is their most popular song right now. Degan: And an incredible song, yeah. Yeah. And I always say this in this podcast that for me, health is bringing up a masculine energy and a feminine energy within yourself. I think that he embodied that, like the clarity with which he spoke too, just to say after he died, his brothers and the band came to Nathan Phillips Square and they did a sing-along, basically. And they talked also about their project for indigenous peoples and they raised money. And I was there, it was a fall night, I think, and we were there with, five, 600 people singing in Nathan Phillips Square. And and it was beautiful. And I'm just thinking about the clarity of his vision and their vision particularly around indigenous, rights and the the forgetting of indigenous history and how we need to remember it and the projects that Gord did after that. Someone described masculinity as compassionate decisiveness. And I think of him in that way. Here he's got this. Yeah. It is this clarity and I feel like that describes him in a lot of ways. I would add too dreamlike and odd. Compassionate and decisive and mischievous at the same time. What a wonderful combination. But I love those forces of masculine, traditional masculine and feminine energy coming out. And that way I feel like he's a mentor, he is like a leader as well as a, just a good man. Good man. Chris: He reframed in a lot of ways the masculine Canadian stereotype, right? The Bill Barilko story. Very Canadian Toronto Maple Leafs hockey player, fishing trip, but this is it's a song about a guy who thinks about this, right? Degan: Yeah. Chris: Even telling the story of David Milgaard, who has to rebuild his life after being wrongly accused. So it's not like he's some sort of alternative masculine, right? Like he goes deep into masculine territory, but he pulls out so much more than most other people do, I think. Degan: Yeah. [00:37:53] Conclusion --- Degan: So go and watch it, everybody. And the next movie we're going to talk about is A History of Violence by David Cronenberg. And I want to say something that I found was really compelling when we were chatting before recording this, that you said, Cronenberg is your favourite director but he hasn't directed your favourite movies. And I just thought that was really curious. So I'm curious about how you square that. And Cronenberg is another remarkable Canadian with such a strange vision. So anyway I'm really curious to talk about History of Violence, which is one of his more, anyway, we'll talk about it, but there's lots here. Chris: History of Violence is probably a outlier of his movies compared to of his other Degan: and Crash. Chris: Or Crash or any of that. But still at the same time lots to talk about around men and masculinity and Degan: Always. Chris: Dealing with the past. Degan: He keeps on giving. Thank you for listening and we will see you next time.