[00:00:07] Laura Richards: Hi, and welcome to All Things EAP, a podcast produced by practitioners across the globe and hosted by BALEAP. It provides a fun and friendly look at every aspect of EAP, helping you keep up with the latest developments and building an inclusive and equitable community around the world. Following the BALEAP, values we hope to be collaborative, professional, developmental, and inclusive. Each episode, we'll dive into an aspect of EAP with discussions, reflections, and insights from practitioners in different contexts. Whoever and wherever you are, we hope you find this podcast informative and insightful. 

Hello and welcome back. In this episode, we travel to Turkey to explore the differences and challenges for practitioners working in a context that's not always as well represented in the literature as the UK or China perhaps. But that has a thriving EAP community, nonetheless. Michelle talks to Derya Alinmakas of MEF University in Istanbul, Yasemin Oral of  Istanbul University-Cerrahpaşa, and Simon Mumford of Izmir University of Economics.

Whilst I, and many of you will probably relate to aspects of the experiences and situations, Derya, Yasmin, and Simon share, it was fascinating to hear the challenges and complexities for EAP in the Turkish context, and it certainly caused me to reflect on the status of our discipline here in the UK. I hope you enjoy the episode and as ever, relevant literature is linked in the show notes. 

[00:01:49] Michelle: Welcome. I'm here with Simon, Derya and Yasemin and I reached out to you because I came across your work in a brilliant edited volume called Teaching English for Academic Purposes: Theory into Practice, and this was edited by Ece Zehir Topkaya and Handan Celik and your chapters really spoke to me. So say a bit about yourself and your contribution to the book?

[00:02:19] Derya: So this is Derya. I'm from Istanbul, Turkey, and I graduated from Istanbul University, and then I had my master's at Warwick University in Applied Linguistics and Cultural Studies, and then I got my PhD from Wal University, and, for 17 years I worked at Istanbul Culture University in the Department of English Language and Literature, first as a lecturer and then after my PhD, as an assistant professor. Most of the time, because my background was in Applied Linguistics, but I was working in a department of English language and literature. I was teaching mostly academic reading and writing courses in addition to some cultural studies and linguistics courses as well. That's how I became familiarized with EAP and mostly I was designing my courses to cater for the needs of humanities students. While I was teaching them also I developed my interest in my research area, which is academic literacies academic writing as well. My PhD dissertation was on undergraduate. Writing and what sort of problems students face, once they start, university. Because in Turkey, in high school education, in K 12 education, not that much importance is given to writing in language classes as the importance given to speaking, reading, and listening. That's why when students start university and when they're expected to start writing, they have, , a lot of challenges. And I'm also into very much academic discourse, socialization and genre pedagogy. And at the same time, now that I'm working at a different university, at MEF University now, and I'm at the Department of English Language teaching this time, so I'm also working on teacher education.

[00:04:11] Michelle: Welcome Derya. Thank you very much. Yasemin next?

[00:04:16] Yasemin: Thank you . Firstly, thanks a lot for having us here. I'm an assistant professor of English Language teaching at Istanbul University Giraf for about 25 years here. And my research interests actually primarily include critical discourse studies and critical pedagogies alongside interculturality and identity and. Recently I have also come to be interested in internationalization of higher education and its intersections with English language teaching. So my interest into EAPI can say although it's not one of my primary. Focus, all the areas that I have been working on and researching intersect with EAP in significant ways. And because here our medium of instruction is English, EAP is a kind of natural components, even if we don't teach it explicitly it's kind of a natural component.

And in the book, my contribution was more about critical EAP and I try to outline the epistemic, theoretical and practical differences between so-called mainstream EAP, let's say, and critical EAP, and the background and the practical implications for the classroom. Basically, the chapter was about these issues.

[00:05:51] Michelle: Thank you for that. , Simon, are you happy to introduce yourself next?

[00:05:56] Simon: Thank you. My name's Simon Mumford. I'm British, but I've been in Turkey for a long time, almost 40 years, and I didn't actually intend to become an academic, but it sort of happened to me. I've been teaching EAP for about 30 years, and also I work in the writing center in Izmir University of Economics where I edit papers, so they have a kind of academic register. That's how I got interested in writing and I met Kenan Dikilitas who's the co-author of the chapter in the book about 10 years ago, and he got me interested in, serious academic writing. So I actually focused on academic literacies , in my PhD. Thesis and in the chapter that we write.

[00:06:45] Michelle: I think one of the things that really came across in, in all of your chapters was, , that the work that you are doing and sharing was really, , theoretically underpinned, and there seemed to be a leaning towards not just accommodationist type approaches but a questioning and a recognition of the heterogeneity of classes and of students and of avoiding a one size fits all approach. And that was theoretically underpinned in your writing. The other thing I really noticed was how you managed to express this in a way, in a very practical, tangible, hands-on way for teachers who were who were accessing the book. You know, whether that's around material writing or adapting materials or, different pedagogies, critical pedagogies in the classroom, or a, variety of approaches,, including academic literacies. That was really striking in your chapters. Before our meeting today, I reached out to different people and said, if you were to hear from you guys in an episode, what would you want to know about? And one of the things that came up was the authors of the book are pretty much all Turkish or writing about a Turkish context, so people said, it would be really nice to know more about EAP in Turkey and what it looks like and how it works. And they came up with some questions and discussion points, and one thing you've already mentioned is how you all made your way around to EAP, and so maybe we could start there. Are there any particular routes or pathways or ways of becoming an EAP teacher or practitioner in the Turkish context?

[00:08:27] Derya: As far as I see, there are two ways. Generally the EAP practitioners either start in preparatory schools, you know, some of the universities their medium of instruction is English. But some departments are in English, some departments are in Turkish so there's always an option for students to attend preparatory school before they start their undergraduate degrees. So most of the EAP practitioners start their careers as instructors in these prep schools where they have generally students of heterogeneous group, I mean, students who are going to embark their undergraduate studies, but they will be in different disciplines. To become EAP teachers there, you need to have a degree from either ELT background, right? A BA in ELT or English literature, or American literature. And generally in these prep schools, teachers are required to have CELTA in most of the prep schools.

And the other option is like you become an EAP instructor in the university and you teach again academic reading and writing to undergraduate students within their disciplines. For example, let's say that you can become an EAP instructor. Teaching an EAP course like in the first or second years of their engineering undergraduate study.

And they're also, as Simon said, writing centers in some of the universities. Where they help students again, with their dissertations especially for graduate study . So this is what I know and what I have observed so far. But of course there can be some more details to, you know, how you become an EAP practitioner.

[00:10:13] Yasemin: Well maybe at this point we need to mention that in the Turkish setting there is a quite significant division between the private universities and state universities in terms of becoming an EAP teacher. I believe what Derya has just said mostly relates to private sector, private universities . In state universities, things are progressing in more challenging ways, I would say, because one thing which is common is that as Derya said EAP teachers are housed in most of the time schools of foreign languages or prep schools in the universities. That's the same in the state universities as well. However, in state universities, EAP is not necessarily a specific unit. We can say so English for general purposes instructors may offer courses on both English for general academic purposes, rather than specifically tailored or discipline specific EAP courses. Or they might treat it like an extension of English for general purposes instruction. The situation in state universities is a little bit difficult when it comes to, in sessional courses because schools of foreign languages provide pre-sessional courses. But when it comes to in sessional courses, it's only the department FA faculty who is responsible for providing EAP instruction in English medium instruction departments most of the time state universities do not recruit EAP teachers specifically in their academic departments. So these are some major differences between state universities and private universities. But of course we can still speak about further heterogeneity or diversity within state or private universities as well.

[00:12:14] Simon: Yeah, that's my experience. In our university we started out with these specific courses for. Different groups like engineers and designers but actually that, that was found to be too difficult to work and too logistically difficult because of timetabling. We switched back now to this more general EAP for, you know, academic general purposes. And I think that that's a trend, but at the same time, there are new courses are beginning to open up in, in the, especially in the second and third years aimed at, at engineers, for example, now we have an engineering group. So yeah, things are always changing.

[00:12:53] Michelle: That's really interesting. And Derya, in terms of the the situation you were describing, where the EAP practitioners are working in the disciplines , what's the kind of relationship like with colleagues in the disciplines? Is that a collaborative, cooperative? There's shaking heads. 

[00:13:11] Derya: Actually, the EAP practitioners should be collaborating or working with the faculty members to familiarize themselves with the specific genres of this discipline, but generally because of, like, you know, yes. The time tables and, , because of the, , workloads nobody's doing that most of the time. So generally, they have a basic understanding of what students need, I guess. So before any grounding, you know, needs analysis or anything, they just design courses for engineering students, they design courses for business, you know marketing students. And but it's not, it's, it doesn't happen with a collaboration as we read it from the literature as how it should be happening, unfortunately.

[00:13:57] Simon: So that has been a little bit of collaboration in our university. A few years ago there was a needs analysis done by the teachers in the School of Foreign Languages, and what they discovered was that in those days we were teaching five paragraph essays. And that actually this was not appropriate for the departments because we, they, they needed to focus on paragraphs on short paragraph answers and exams. And so that didn't need an introduction. It didn't need a long conclusion. So after that needs analysis, we were able to adjust our, our course. But having said that, you know, there's not an awful lot of collaboration going on between the School of Foreign Language and the departments. 

[00:14:45] Yasemin: For instance, in my experience here at my university, I can say that there is actually a very good collaboration between the School of Foreign Languages here and the ELT department, for example. The faculty staff are in the board of the School of Foreign Languages, so we know them, we talk constantly, but it never turns in turns into a formal type of collaboration. I believe that in the Turkish setting, it wouldn't be misleading to say that EAP has not been institutionalized yet. So this is, this is quite a significant point, which is affecting kind of every aspect of practice, policy and implementation. And I know that for instance, once previously, for example, tried to open up specifically tailored. More EAP focused prep class for our own students. But this wasn't possible. The, the prep school this time came to us and asked us to teach the prep school courses because they said that they are teachers do not have sufficient disciplinary knowledge or subject matter knowledge, which complicates the things further. Although we tried and, you know, hard to make it possible. We couldn't because as Simon said, logistically it's not possible for us to teach both in the department and in the school of foreign languages to teach EAP courses. It becomes an enormous workload, which is impossible.

So institutionalization of EAP is required, and I believe it's not. Too far away because this internationalization of universities, higher education has got a, you know, profound impact on universities. It's, it's reshaping everything. So we'll get there, but I don't know when.

[00:16:46] Michelle: You've tapped into something. A question that came up , from listeners was around the relationship between EAP , and English medium instruction. And I know Yasmin, this is something that you have written about. So, , , what do you think about that relationship, you know, , the good, the bad,, the pros and the cons?

[00:17:03] Yasemin: Well I think , EMI is quite on the rise in Turkey because Turkish universities are striving for international recognition. Higher ranks. , In the system and international publication, they want to attract international students. At the policy level there is quite a lot of pressure. This directly connects to EMI and EAP because of the close relationship between the two actually. But so here in more research oriented or , already internationalized universities, the system is trying to keep up with the changes. But in some other contexts, things are moving or progressing very slowly, hindered by bureaucratic obstacles. The local circumstances in universities, . I don't think the support structures are sufficient for EAP teachers in that sense. And one important point I would like to highlight here is that , I think EAP teachers or EAP instructors at tertiary level in Turkey are kind of fulfilling a hybrid role or a third space let's say. They are trying to to carry out research professional development on the one hand. On the other hand, they're trying to do their courses, which are, you know quite challenging in the Turkish setting due to the reasons which we have all mentioned. So it's, it's quite tough to become an EAP teacher or instructor in the Turkish setting, I would say. .

[00:18:44] Michelle: Yeah, it sounds it for sure. In terms of what EAP teachers can do, what they're allowed to do, their autonomy and what's it like in terms of curriculum design opportunities? In that context, do they have flexibility and autonomy or is there like a curriculum set for them? How does that work ?

[00:19:04] Simon: Yeah, we have a book which we follow. It's got four units. It's an in-house book and every week has a different page number that we're supposed to cover. So from that perspective, it's quite limiting. But actually, there's , there's not much direction on how you present the material. So from that perspective, you know, there's, there's quite a lot of freedom and you know, I'm happy with that, that balance really. I think there's not really people telling you exactly what you should do with material. And this is one of the strange things that when you look at the material, it looks quite conservative with, you know, gap filling and, and fill in the blanks and, and all these multiple choice questions. But actually there's a lot you can do with it. You know, once you've got the expertise and I think teachers do have a lot of freedom to interpret material as they like. So, that's how I would describe the situation in, in our university.

[00:20:05] Derya: Yeah. As far as I know, in both universities that I worked in, the presessional courses, in the prep program, they were actually using in-house books as well. , Also I part-time taught at the state university for like two or three years.

And there they were also using in-house materials. And there was always a material and testing design office, you know, so some people were specifically working for this and they were actually preparing, you know different sets of materials for different levels of students with different levels of proficiency. The teachers were using these materials that were given to them, they were using testing systems, evaluation systems that were given to them. But I think the, the teachers were quite flexible Yes. In how they use the materials. So I think it all depends on the teacher, whether they want to strictly stick to the materials or they want to do some adaptations for their students as specific needs and stuff.

But when you have the chance to teach not. EGAP English for general academic purposes, but when you have the chance to teach as a faculty member in your own department, academic reading and writing, then of course as a faculty member, you can design your own course and choose your own materials, which will specifically be useful for this academic.

Discipline. Like, you know, for example, when I was teaching academic writing to literature students, I was designing all my materials specifically for those students. And now in our ELT department the students are learning for example, genres that they will be producing in the upcoming years. So as a teacher, you can have this kind of flexibilities.

[00:21:56] Michelle: Yeah. Yasmin?

[00:21:58] Yasemin: Just one point. From a critical perspective. . I would say that actually Turkish higher education is quite a centralized system in the sense that the Council of Higher Education is quite prescriptive in terms of, you know, the. Courses that we teach, the number of courses, the credits and everything.

So of course, as faculty members, we do have certain types of autonomy to design our own syllabus. But the baseline is always provided by the higher Education Council. But when it comes to EAP. I think interestingly this time because it's not institutionalized and because they don't have any professional guidelines or frames for this everything is kind of in the hands of the teachers or EAP.

Units, if there are any, which gives them quite a lot of autonomy freedom. But I think this is mostly because as I said, they don't have the resources or the support structures or the, you know the frames to kind of organize this. So it's all in the hands of the. Teachers, , which I find interesting given the centralized nature of the tertiary education here in Turkey.

[00:23:22] Simon: . Yeah. , In our university, all the EAP teachers tend to be the older ones, you know, who've been there a long time. . And they, they're trusted and they, they hardly ever get observed, you know, and, and so I think, yeah, we do have this kind of, autonomy. Which which is good to an extent, although as you suggest, maybe a bit of oversight would be a good idea. Yeah.

[00:23:46] Michelle: Yeah. This conversation's making me think about,, the kind of status and positioning of EAP. Instructors or practitioners in universities and, about the, the job market .

Actually, it's just making me think about. What sorts of teachers are employed? Where, and what sorts of contracts are these, long term contracts or are they short, fixed term? Is there any sort of precarity ? .

[00:24:09] Yasemin: In the, in the state universities most of the time the contracts are long term. The, the instructors are, recruited for the, as I said, as we start schools of foreign languages.

So they teach English for general purposes, EAP and et cetera. And most of the time the contracts are, , are long term, but the situation in private universities, I believe are, are. Various and different, so maybe Derya and Simon could have more to say on this.

[00:24:38] Derya: Well actually private universities when you have a contract, you don't renew your contract annually. It's like, I mean, as long as they. Tell you not to go, you assume that your contract will be renewed. So but generally they have as far as I know from my colleagues they have like some meetings, like performance meetings with the head of the department of the school of foreign languages.

So where they speak about whether the instructor has you know, met. The requirements or you know whether you know, they were doing well, let's say in the courses because in private universities they always look at, you know, the surveys that are being administered to students, whether they were content with the lesson, content with the instructor, and they are taken very seriously most of the time in private universities.

So these are evaluated, I think they have this they have this kind of meetings annually, but their contract is like renewed automatically. But of course, if there's a problem, you know, you always have the risk of , being sent away, let's say.

[00:25:45] Simon: What, what I found about EAP teachers in our university, especially, I mean, I, with te I'm talking about not the prep program, but the freshmen program , there tend to be people who not only teach, but do other things like coordinate courses or.

Train other teachers. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. , I, I do editing for academics, so it's quite unusual for someone in our group to, to be just a teacher. So they tend to be people who've been around a long time and have got other skills as well.

[00:26:16] Michelle: Yeah. You've just touched on something there around, , supporting other teachers, and it made me think about professional development for mm-hmm. EAP instructors . And kind of scholarship, professional development. , Are there any kind of frameworks or principles or opportunities?

[00:26:32] Derya: Well, I can share three of my experiences that I've seen in different private universities. , In all of these universities, in the schools of foreign languages, in the prep program, I mean, they give professional development for EAP instructors, especially to novice teachers like, , if they have.

Very little experience with EAP. So they have, again, some other EAP instructors already working in the program. And these more experienced ones are professionally, you know giving support to the novice ones.

They don't give them, let's say one class, but they work for, period of time as substitute teachers. You know, they work in the testing and material office and, they do all these kinds of, you know, short courses, like workshops with the more experienced ones.

And then they are given actual classrooms to teach. So they have their own group of students and everything. So there are chances for professional development and some, schools of foreign languages prep programs, they have been accredited with the system called equals, I think. . So this is an accreditation program.

Those ones are specifically giving importance to professional development because they have to show it, you know in for being accredited again and again, let's say. So they are going to conferences together. They are international conferences and they are trying to attend them and they are.

Organizing some professional development workshops and stuff like that.

[00:28:04] Simon: Yeah. I mean, , our, our teachers that are required to do a, professional development project every year. And, you know, that could be observation, reflective writing. What I would say though is that it's, it doesn't have an EAP focus necessarily. So I think that's what's missing at the moment. You know, , there's probably no writing involved. Maybe there should be, if they're going to be EAP teachers, especially academic writing.

So a focus on academic language should be, I think, at the center of, of EAP professional development.

[00:28:39] Michelle: What about BALEAP Fellowship? Because I know there's lots of people from the Turkish community context who do engage with different BALEAP things. Is fellowship something that's discussed at all or referred to, or is it , not as prioritized really as it might be, for example, in the uk?

[00:28:56] Simon: I'd like to say that, that we are applying, our university is applying for BALEAP accreditation next year but I think that's something that's very much ongoing.

[00:29:05] Derya: Most EAP practitioners in Turkey are not very familiar with BALEAP, although they are familiar with you other associations. I find this competency framework, which is prepared for EAP instructors by BALEAP quite useful for familiarizing them with all these competency framework, what EAP entails, what are the differences between EGAP and ESAP and familiarizing them with disciplinary differences and what academic discourse entails. But I don't know how it can be established . 

[00:29:42] Yasemin: I agree with Derya in the sense that many practitioners are not actually familiar with BALEAP's work, and I also agree with the effectiveness of the competency framework. There are significant institutional, structural, and contextual differences for accreditation or to be able to use the framework in the Turkish setting effectively. For instance here the circumstances do not allow exactly to follow them. I think what BALEAP can offer more could be opening up some space for regional networks maybe. So specific regions with similar circumstances, similar structural and institutional resources can collaborate more because I would say the British context and the Turkish setting are completely two different scenarios. And I would say it's the same for majority of the European countries.

So here the EAP practitioners I think need more resources and guidance, which can be well in addition to the general guidelines and frames or materials and resources, they need more guidance to develop more context sensitive materials. So this can be supported by regional networks or, , more inclusion of voices from outside Europe, outside uk which you obviously are doing. But, and developing you know resources for low resource context like Turkey, for instance, because teachers do have a lot of workloads and I know that majority of the practitioners are struggling to do the best, but given the circumstances.

Especially I would like to connect this with CPD and scholarship. How, how are they supposed to, , carry out research activities or, , this sort of scholarship while they are busy with teaching curriculum development, material developments? Grading because they're , doing everything in house. It's quite challenging, that's why this sort of networking and resource development organizations might help EAP practitioners in the Turkish setting.

[00:32:10] Simon: I'd also like to add that although the situation is quite difficult in Turkey in some ways, there's a there's a thriving teacher research movement here. Kenan Dikiltas kind of started that and over the last 10 years, you know, and that was being based in universities mainly. I think. So, I think there's a lot of potential there. And I think teacher research is very closely connected with EAP because it, it means teachers are becoming researchers and, you know, writing in an academic way, a semi-academic way about, about their research. I see that as, as a positive sign really that mm-hmm. That that could support BALEAP's efforts or other efforts to, to institutionalize EAP.

. 

[00:32:54] Derya: I think BALEAP needs to be a little bit more visible, , it's very much UK based and only people who are interested in finding more about EAP find BALEAP, let's say. Sometimes I'm being invited , as an external member, to job recruitment, , processes to some other private universities where they are recruiting EAP instructors to their schools of foreign languages. And when I go there the candidates have ELT backgrounds, they have CELTA , but they really don't know what EAP entails. So BALEAP can offer something in that sense to these schools or by a regional contact,

yeah.

[00:33:35] Michelle: That was my last question. If I'm quite a new novice, EAP practitioner, I want to get into teaching EAP in the Turkish context. How do I go about it? And what about if I'm an experienced EAP practitioner, would I go about it in the same way or would I access a job in a different way?

[00:33:53] Yasemin: First of all as we said at the very beginning, actually, you need to start gaining some teaching experience at the tertiary level to start with. It doesn't necessarily have to be EAP. You can start with English for general purposes, teaching or instruction, but working with university level students experience is usually what is expected from EAP teachers.

[00:34:17] Michelle: Yeah. Okay. Any final thoughts?

[00:34:21] Simon: I would just like to mention the, the issue of, of what we call native speakers and non-native speakers. Oh yeah. And I think that's, that's quite a big issue in, in Turkey. I'm not sure if we're allowed to say native speakers anymore, but I still use that term, but I'm getting on a bit. But you know, I think there's you know, if you have, if you're a native speaker, you have a huge advantage. And well, you had in the past, I'm not sure if that's true, but actually being a native speaker in EAP is not necessarily an advantage. In fact, it can be a disadvantage because as we know, I mean, Turkish people have struggled with academic writing in English. And they've learned the hard way. Whereas, you know, if I just come in and I haven't done much. Right. Say I haven't done much writing. Then you know, that's not very helpful. So, I mean, I think that's a, a big issue that needs to be looked at.

[00:35:13] Yasemin: I think what Simon mentioned is quite an important point. So I would like to add that well, native speakerism is an established ideology in the Turkish setting, I would say. It's difficult to challenge, it's difficult to resist. So that's one aspect. But , on the other hand, the field of EAP within the theoretical landscape is evolving, including equity justice issues.

So as I also discussed in the chapter these political and ideological aspects of EAP are challenged, however, when we look at practice the gap between theory and practice in that sense is quite large, I'm afraid.

[00:36:01] Derya: This is a huge problem. This dichotomy between native speaker, English teachers and non-native speaker English teachers has always been a big issue in the Turkish setting, not only for tertiary level education, but for K 12 level education, there is this trend in Turkey that all private institutions, like private schools, private university, they are promoting themselves with the number of native speaker teachers that they have in their institutions, unfortunately. And this goes for some prep schools as well. Sometimes, when, , parents come to university or when students are choosing which university to go for example, the way universities are promoting themselves is like, oh, you know what?

In our prep schools, 90% of our teachers are native speakers which can be quite, attractive for the parents or for the students, let's say, but I totally agree with Simon. Most of these native speaker, EAP teachers, they don't know the education system in Turkey where students are coming from. With what sort of skills actually they bring to university or what needs to be developed. They don't know the education system in Turkey, so this creates huge discrepancy between the teacher's expectations and what students are practicing.

[00:37:16] Yasemin: I totally agree . How about the writing and reading skills in Turkish? The proficiency levels? What they, what they bring to tertiary level. So this is, this is quite a complex issue, I agree.

[00:37:30] Michelle: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. I think it's, as you said, it's a really important situation and a lot of work to be done, not only in the Turkish context, but I think internationally around these embedded ideas. Around different users of English. I'm glad that you raised it. Because this is , the type of place where these discussions should be happening, and we can hopefully, change some of the discourse the more we talk about it.





[00:37:55] Michelle: Thanks again to Yasemin, Derya and Simon for sharing their insights into EAP priorities in the Turkish context. Coming from the UK context, I enjoyed learning about the status of EAP and EAP practitioners in different types of institutions, and I could relate to many of the issues raised. I think there seems to be a lot to consider about the role of BALEAP for EAP practitioners in the Turkish setting, and the suggestions made could be discussed perhaps with BALEAP executive members.

I hope you found this episode as interesting as I have. Thank you for listening.

[00:38:34] Laura Richards (she/her): We really want to hear from you as well. So if you'd like to share a comment, suggestion or an insight into something that we've talked about on one of the episodes, please send us an email or voice note at podcast@baleap.org, but you can also get in touch through our YouTube channel, @AllThingsEAP. Thank you again for listening, and we hope that you can join us for the next episode. 

Take care. Bye-bye.