Introduction to Season Two --- Chris: [00:00:00] Welcome to season two of What Kind of Man Are You? Degan: We are living in a moment where the ground is shifting under our feet. Politics, identity, even basic humanity, it all feels up for grabs. As men, we're asking, what's our role in all this? Chris: Time to tear up the old playbook. Do we step back or we finally reckon with what it means to be a man who actually gives a damn? Degan: This is What Kind of Man Are You? The podcast where we untangle masculinity, privilege, and the messy work of showing up. I'm Degan Davis, a therapist, writer, and author of the Poetry Collection. What Kind of Man Are You? Chris: And I am writer and producer, Chris Garbutt. Each episode we'll tackle the big questions. How do we be better allies? How do we confront fear, in the world and in ourselves? And what's our [00:01:00] responsibility when the stakes are this high? Degan: No easy answers. Just real talk about shame, courage, and the small acts that aren't so small, like standing up when it counts. Chris: So whether you're here to rethink masculinity, fight for justice, or just feel a little less alone in the chaos, let's get into it.Welcome everyone. Thank you for joining us. Chris and this is Degan: Degan. Discussing Superman's Influence --- Chris: Degan, we have gone from a small, independent, Basically art movie set in Denmark to probably the biggest movie of the year in America, Superman. Degan and I went to watch this one together and, and we'll, we'll talk about that. So, Degan, why don't, what do you [00:02:00] your first exposure to Superman? Degan: You know, I didn't read a lot of comics except sort of Archie comics and yeah, that, that's sort of like, so I didn't experience the Marvel Universe through Superman through comics. But I do remember the Christopher Reeve movie and I was just thinking about how, you know, as like, we've talked about this in the first season as a, as a, I wasn't like a tough guy in the schoolyard and I I got, you know, had this bullied for a couple of years and I think there's something about seeing a movie like Superman and also a movie like the Karate Kid, like those movies where where, you know, someone is good and they're doing good in the world, and they're also, they're tough guys. And they're, they're, they're strong. And they're putting that, you know, strength basically to a, to a good purpose. And they're so, so I felt like just really inspired By Superman and yeah, and I'm just having images right [00:03:00] now of the end of the original Superman where I think he, he flies around the earth backwards and he reverses time. Right. And saves I was probably saves Lois Lane right. That, and I just had that image of that, like that was, yeah. You know, that's what's what came to me. But I think the thing about this Superman and that Superman, what we're gonna talk about today is, is this kind of like this good guy, right? Like this, like, like this, this good man who is, I dunno, using his powers for good. That's what I've got. That's what's in my, my mind about Superman. Chris: Yeah, my definitely my first exposure as a kid. don't know if it was current, I don't think it was, but, I remember seeing Superman cartoons on television, and Superman was a very serious clean cut, low voiced, strong guy who took care of things right, [00:04:00] solved problems. There were big problems. Clark Kent was a high pitched reporter. Well, he's always a reporter, obviously. Degan: Yeah. Chris: and. You know, that's, that's where I always remember that, that, you know, this looks like a job for Superman. Like as soon as he changes, takes off his day clothes, his, his voice goes into a much more masculine sound. And, and he almost, he almost feels like that cartoon version almost feels like a He almost feels like a businessman in his seriousness and like a good citizen kind of way. So that's, that was my first memory. And then when, when the Christopher Reeve movies came out, that actually totally changed my image of Superman he, he seemed more modern for, for the time and, Superman [00:05:00] and Lois Lane always had that, you know, will they won't they thing going on. In in the movie he just, the, the, you know, he did turn the world backwards to save Lois's life. I don't know if the previous Superman done. Change the whole world to say one person. So I feel Degan: Right, Chris: and, and there's, there is a sense of Superman becoming more introspective and, and human as the, and literally in the sequel to the Christopher Reeve Superman, he literally becomes human. So, Degan: right. Chris: so anyway, that, that was that was my early exposure him. Analyzing the New Superman Movie --- Chris: So, so let's, let's talk about this movie that we just saw. Degan: Yeah, what did you think of it? Chris: Yeah. So I mean, you and I both felt like we went from this kind of [00:06:00] we needed to, we went from a movie that's really hard to find. We actually had to go on the, the library site for The Hunt our last. And for this one, I think both the idea that we would go for a very blockbuster movie, but also, you know, what, what better title for a movie for our podcast than Superman. So so, this one, the movie actually starts with him suffered a major defeat and he kind of, again, we are, we will not be, we will try to mention it if we spoil a, give a spoiler. But we'll warn you now that we will be talking about the movie and not worrying that much about spoilers. And it's not really a spoiler to say he goes to his Degan: Ice Palace. Chris: a name for it, but I, I can't remember what it is. He's there and he's like trying, [00:07:00] like, he can barely make it back to back there. So he, he actually calls his dog Krypto, to me was the dog, was my favorite part of the movie. What's that? Oh, it's his niece's dog, right? Degan: Yeah. And in fact that, that, that's where all the energy is Now, that short little scene about the niece, Krypto right, is actually super girls dog and she's this kind of young niece of Superman's. And now there's all this sort of media exposure about there might be a Super Girl movie and her name is Millie Alcott. And yeah, and she is was known for oh my gosh. You know, that, that the, the, the sequel or the, is it the sequel? The prequel to Game of Thrones. She's one of the main characters. Which one is that? Chris: Oh, House of the Dragon. Degan: Yes. And so she's [00:08:00] one, one of the stars of House of the Dragon. So anyway, that she only got a tiny, tiny little scene in it, but that she sparked some interest. So. Chris: Yeah. And, and very, very that felt like a veryObvious sign that there was gonna be another movie. Degan: Yes, totally. Chris: But anyway, the dog, the dog was very entertaining because he's got all the, he's like, the dog is super powerful and but also like completely untrained. So he's very, he's one, like one of those dogs that jumps you the moment you come in the door, except he's extremely strong. I, I found that very entertaining. Anyway, the, the movie is essentially about Luthor trying to take over the world as per usual. He's trying to kill Superman. The, the one thing that I found interesting was that there, [00:09:00] there, there was, there was a whole sort of class of what they were calling meta humans who, who had super powers and many of them were actually born on on Earth, whereas Superman was obviously came from Krypton. That becomes a major, major play in the, in the movie. And one of the ways that Luthor gets Back, its Superman is to destroy his reputation, Degan: Right. Chris: and to to make him responsible for, you know, some sort of disaster. There's a, there's a lot of kind of new nuance here. Superman's Modern Challenges --- Chris: One of the things you mentioned, you we talked about the war, this war between these two fictional countries, [00:10:00] and Superman actually stops a, a country from attacking another without any consultation. And there's a lot of this question of did he do the right thing or did he not? Because he took, took things into his own hands. But he did save a lot of lives, like a lot of lives. But you know, he's. Now he's fighting against these now his reputation is damaged because of something Lex Luthor has, has made him seem responsible for something. And, and so quickly he, people start referring to him as the alien. Degan: The alien. Chris: This idea that he is, from, a, an outsider. And you know, there's a [00:11:00] lot of this kind of, you know, I, I don't even know if the plot matters as much as matters to the action because, you know, there's of action. But, But to me, what really struck me as. New and fresh was this idea of Superman is the alien. That's not a new idea, but really doubling down on that idea. And and instead of, you know, before Superman was this alien from another planet who was a hero right? Everybody looked up to him and here they, they used that as a way that. actually turn on him. I think that was a really, really and contemporary way to look at it. So anyway, the, I, I didn't really go over the plot, but I thought, I thought those were the interesting, the fact that [00:12:00] they kind of really brought some contemporary elements into this and took a stand Degan: Yeah. Chris: I think, too. Degan: Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that I, I like too, they, you know, they have in a secret you know, room somewhere. Lex Luthor has these trained monkeys typing out social media like you know, comments. He, he was always an alien. He, you know, he was, he was always against us. I don't trust Superman and you know. Just, you know, just, just updating, you know, how, how evil works in the world these days. Right. Chris: Also I think there's something interesting and, and this has happened, all this had happened already, but Lex Luthor has over time evolved from a mad scientist into an evil billionaire. Degan: Yeah. Chris: A lot of, you know, that kind of happened in the eighties with the. know, the [00:13:00] dominance of wealth in the eighties and the distrust of rich people that accompanied that. And Lex Luthor is very much, seems like one of those tech, Degan: Oh yeah, Chris: and, and yeah, the, the fact that he has his own troll farm and it's monkeys is quite hilarious to me. Degan: Yeah. Yeah. Superheroes and Society --- Degan: I just wanna say something for a moment, just about the origins of Superman, you know on that. He, he was created by two, two Jews living in Cleveland. You, you said, right? And, and in, in like the 1930s. So we're, we're talking, you know we're talking about, you know. Jewish men and Jewish who have been, of course, from the outside coming into America and creating this like deeply American hero who, who, who is so good at [00:14:00] heart, at which I just wanna say I, I, I'm really taken by the goodness of Superman in the sense like the nice guy, like he is like a, like an Ohio farm boy. Right. Like his face and his and that sort of thing, which is, it's interesting, right? He, he doesn't look Jewish, right? It's interesting. And, and you know, I'm just thinking about comparing him to other superheroes, particularly Batman. Batman, who is always so brooding, you know? Batman could easily be an East European Jew, you know you know, but, but Superman is this sort of farm boy. He's got, he's like the goodness of America. And they, the creators absolutely took, took that. And I think that's really interesting thinking about today with this idea of the alien, right? How he's, how he's. You know, in the movie anyway he's seen as an alien and, and I think it's kind of a beautiful counter. Like they, you know, that's, that's the plot. The plot sort of like tries to take this man who is generous and good and, and a little bit simple minded too. Like that's, I'm not simple minded, but a little like simple in [00:15:00] his way of conceiving the world, which I'd like to talk about in a little bit, particularly as men, right? Yeah, credulous and and yet, you know, so they, they try and paint him as the outsider. And yeah, I just, I, I just think it's interesting to, to bring that. That in, you know, I just wanna say something else for a moment, which is interesting. Last night, I, I was talking to you earlier, I went to a concert last night, and one of the singers on stage said, I, I wanna pose a question to you. She basically said, is nostalgia a does the nostalgia lead to fascism? What's the relationship between nostalgia and fascism? And it was a really interesting question, right? And the whole audience was like, 'cause she was talking about a song she was gonna sing and da da. And I thought he, and, and I thought, you know, my answer to that is, is really that when nostalgia becomes kind of canned almost, when it becomes like taken [00:16:00] up by a government, for example, like the MAGA movement or taken up by, you know, by a culture for a particular reason, then, then yeah, it can absolutely can be a doorway to fascism. But when it's personal, of course it has the warmth of memory and, and all the rest of it. But I just thought, here, like, like Superman himself is kind of nostalgic, right? Like it's so old. Those comics are nostalgic. Chris: I mean, the question. Of nostalgia, I think is a really, interesting one, especially as, Superman is because Superman is a really good study in a reflection of his times, right? you know pre-war, he was kind of the, the, you know, the advocate for the oppressed, and, and he stood up for the little guy and, and he was like, you know, pro New Deal [00:17:00] in America and all this kind of thing. So it Degan: In the Comics. Chris: the comics depression era you know. Like lifting people up. And then, you know, of course during World War II he was helping out in the war effort and all that sort of thing. Degan: Right. Chris: Post World War II in a time of prosperity, he was more of a champion of order. Degan: Interesting. Chris: So now what we have. You know, times have changed, somewhere in the nineties we wanted our, our male characters, even, even in the eighties a bit with like Batman, we wanted them to be more complicated and troubled and, and apparently the comics, the Superman comics became more like that, in the nineties and at some point, I think in the nineties, he actually dies. And so and [00:18:00] so we've got this kind of, I think with this movie we've got kind of a distillation of both the nostalgic Superman, the earnest, I said credulous before, what I meant was earnest the earnest Superman, but also the one who's like, I keep trying to do the right thing and it never is good enough, right? Like, I save an entire country from being wiped out. And everyone says, I overstep my bounds. But at the same time, he's that kind of loner, you know, in the, by taking action like that, without any consultation, without any sort of. You know, just Degan: Yeah. Chris: his own instinct, that's like Clint Eastwood, John Wayne kind of action. Right? So he's become, he's earnest, but he's much more complex than, the fifties one who is [00:19:00] more about doing the right thing and maintaining order. Degan: I'd like to say something and then I want to ask you a question afterwards 'cause that you said right after the film that I felt really interesting. But the, the part I want to say first about like that sort of simplistic or that sort of like, like just like he says in the movie a bunch of times, I just came here to help. Right. Like, I just want, I just, right. And Lois Lane interviews him, right? And she asked him like, well, you didn't, you know, consult with the, you know, president of this country. You just did this unilaterally, right? That kind of thing. Chris: Right. Degan: But I, what, what, what I was reflecting on, and as, as a couple's therapist, is how often I see, and it's not always men doing this, but it often is men when there's a problem in the relationship and they want, like, the men often, but not always, wants to fix. Right. And that's, I had that sort of resonance thinking about Superman in that way and being like, listen, I really do wanna fix this situation here. Right? Like it's, you know, [00:20:00] and, the partner saying. Like you don't get it and the man going, but listen, I really want to No, I, I wanna be listened to. There's a lot of things you can't fix, right. And I just want to say that and, and, and where the, the, the, where it spirals into, into sort of something you know, difficult. And, and this is similar to Superman. Is that he's sort of frustrated with this, right? Like he ends up and he's frustrated, 'cause it's like, listen, I really, basically, it's like I really do care. I do care about this world and I want to fix it. And I think that's how men are and, and people in relationships, like, I really wanna just try and fix it and, and if they get that, that's not helping me. Then there's this frustration there that actually when you don't see what I'm, what what I'm actually offering. And so there's some kind of goodness in him. And then, you know, and that, and the truth of the matter from a counseling perspective is there's a lot of things that can't be fixed. And really what we need to do is listen and be present, right? Which and just say, I really hear you, and that's actually the best thing you can do. So that's, that's, [00:21:00] that resonated with me from the, from the movie. Chris: Well, yeah, I think that's, that's really a good observation. 'cause I think what, you know, I'm, I, I did really enjoy this movie when I was watching it, but as we talk about it, I'm appreciating it more and more. And this idea of, you know, there's a whole, this whole idea of the sort of maverick, lone wolf guy who solves problems, doesn't, doesn't wait for anyone else to, to tell them what to do. They just act on their, you know, they know what the solution is and they aren't gonna let any bureaucracy stand in their way, et cetera, et cetera. Right? This, and, and what's happening in this movie is. does that, and it's like, I'm trying to save the world here and you're telling me I should have consulted with the president or whatever. Degan: [00:22:00] Yeah. Chris: And I think the point is that we don't know the larger implications of what the fix is and, and what this quote unquote fix might be in that instance. And like you said, in relationships when someone tries to fix a situation, is that actually a fix, right? Like or Degan: Yeah. Chris: change things in the moment? 'Cause usually when there's something wrong, there's, there's more to it than that, right? And, and as you say, if someone is upset about something happening, it's not the thing that happened that should be fixed. It's the upset. And mostly when someone's upset, they want to be heard, they want to be validated, they want to be acknowledged, and all that. Degan: Yeah, someone says, [00:23:00] someone says, oh my gosh, I have to see my parents for this weekend, and it's so difficult. You can't fix, you're not, you're not gonna change an environment like that, right? Because of whatever their history has been. It's just like, it's going back generations. So what are you gonna do? You can't fix it. You can say, Hey honey, I'm here for you. You know? But I wanna ask you a question. Final Thoughts and Reflections --- Degan: When you talk about like, Superman coming in kind of unilateral, I mean like, let's be honest, superheroes are a, I mean, yeah, you have the Justice League, right? You have the, Chris: yeah. Actually Degan: but they. The Super Chris: Friends were my first, that was the cartoon that I remember Superman from. Degan: so yeah, you have groups, but in general, superheroes are unilateral saviours, right? They are. They are like Batman and, and, and a lot of the tension in these narratives is, you know, particularly now I can, like we had a more innocent age in the, well, in a sense, in the forties, fifties in terms of character, right? Or I'm gonna, we want to save the world, but we're really talking now about, well, what are the what are [00:24:00] the the drives of these superheroes? And you know, I was just watching Lego Batman with my kids, which is actually a really interesting film because Batman is an absolute loner in that film. I've now watched it three times. So a minor expert, but he's an absolute loner, lives in his Bat Cave. No one invites him to parties anymore. So you that the tension there is, is that he's really done it on his own, his entire life. And of course we know now it, well we've been talking about this for, for, for 20 years. This idea of male isolation. Right. And just doing it on own. But you said something after the film, which was something like, and I don't want to, I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like, all superheroes are fascists. Chris: Yeah, Degan: I wondered if you could unpack that a bit. Chris: Well, okay. So I will point out, I, and we both did a little bit of digging on Superman because we knew that it was more than just this movie we wanted to talk about . But there was a psychologist or psych. [00:25:00] Psychiatrist, or maybe it was a psychology professor. In the fifties, this guy named called Superman a fascist. And but he, he was a, he was arguing that he was a bad influence on children. And Degan: welcome. Chris: Now look, I. S Superman is, I would see, I would see him more at risk of being a fascist, like with that whole idea of justice and the American way being his guiding principle. You know, but like, what, what, why should one person hold that much power over the future of humanity. That's my [00:26:00] whole thing about superheroes generally, that this sort of I, I sometimes think we project onto individuals our own fears and think they're gonna come and fix it. This kind of saviour syndrome that we, where we project onto another person, you know, a politician. Or in the workplace. In the workplace. I saw it all the time. This new boss is gonna like clean it up you know, literally Donald Trump drain, the swamp. We're gonna up Washington. How's that working out for you? so. Degan: Till it comes to the Epstein files. Chris: He really was. Yeah. He just doesn't want anyone who's falsely accused to be hurt by that. Degan: Right. Chris: But so, so to me, and you know, there's an interesting [00:27:00] difference between, The Marvel Universe and the DC Universe because I feel like Marvel is a collection of conflicted, like Marvel is, like Spider-Man, Ironman Black Widow, X-Men, all those of superheroes. And they're, they're not even comfortable with the role of Hero. And I feel like dc, which is primarily Superman and Batman. They're like two sides of the coin. Superman, the earnest, do-gooder and Batman. The, the brooding, almost reluctant, you know, as they call 'em Dark Knight. So essentially it's this idea that there is some sort of super man, and occasionally woman but [00:28:00] rarely who will come along and fix things for us. And one, one of the jokes I've made is that a superhero is someone who uses their childhood trauma to commit massive violence and, and calls it saving the world, you know? And and Degan: Hm. Chris: I guess, I guess on that level, you know, so that's why I sort of see, see them as kind of fashy, you know, like they. There's nothing democratic about superheroes, right? Like there's superheroes are people who come along. They, they may or may not do the right thing, but they make their own mind, mind up about what the right thing is, right. Degan: Yeah. Chris: You know, and, and I think that's what's interesting about this movie is that he starts and, and, you [00:29:00] know, twist in this movie, and this is definitely a spoiler he finds out, he's believed all along because he has a message from his parents that he's supposed to do good for the earth and that that's his mission in life. Degan: Right. Chris: And then he finds out that there was a second part. That was decoded. And, and again, Lex Luthor discover, discovers it and use it against him, makes it public that actually he was in the second part, he was told to take over earth and rule it. which would, which would make him a a would he be a fascist? A colonist? He wouldn't be a colonist because there're one following him. So so anyway, that's, that's why I said that to you when we were having beers is, is that Degan: Yeah. Chris: feel like have to be careful to, like, sometimes, sometimes I'll hear people [00:30:00] talk about their superpower and what they're really saying is, this is one of my best skills. Right. And you know, I guess it's harmless mostly, but this idea of superpowers and heroes, it kind of all goes back to that. There's this, there's this idea that there's a simple fix and you just need to be powerful enough to make it happen. And and some of the more interesting ones, like there are a lot of more modern, especially Marvel ones, where they really unquote problematize that, there's, you know, Marvel has a lot of reluctant superheroes, but but at the same time, I think, I think we need to be like a, we need, we need to critically analyze why superhero is such a popular genre. Degan: I mean, I think on some basic level, it's like the way [00:31:00] we, you know, we want to wear Guerrero shirts, you know, at the Blue Jays or, you know just that, that, that there's something that we, we, Identify in these people that are public figures that are doing something pretty remarkable, you know? And, and that's fine. It feels nice to support them, to see it. It's like a, a sense of our own, like, I don't know the strength projected, you know, commitment projected somewhere. I think the one thing I want to say about that is, and I've been thinking about this a lot and I mentioned it in the other podcast to me, from my sort of therapy standpoint I think of health as being ri like, like ri, bringing up masculine and feminine energy. You know, both, both of those pieces. And so in that way, I think, you know, a celebration, I mean, there's, there's, there there is a celebration of, you know, I'm talking about archetypal energy, like, like strength, right. Power, boundary setting, you know, that kind of thing. Like that's a kind of a, an [00:32:00] archetypal masculine energy. And I don't think there's anything wrong at all with like, celebrating that in a way. And it's kind of interesting that in this Superman, you know, he, he sort of like, you know, he sort of called out for. You know not having some of that, that feminine energy, not, you know, which, which would be more communication, talking, you know, with these leaders, you know, coming at it from a little more holistic sense. And that way the movie kind of like, just drops that, that thread, right? It's like Lois Lane says it to him and then basically, you know, whatever. He, he does his thing in the end. But I, but I think that's coming in, in other superheroes. Like, like it sounds funny to talk about Lego Batman, but it's actually a very, has some very powerful scenes for a kid's movie and, and in it is a lot about that sense of, and I think what, what is a kind of feminine trait or a feminist ener energy, feminine energy, sorry. What is a feminine energy, which is about communication, which is about connection and, and just to, to swerve to the Batman figure. He, you know, at one point, the [00:33:00] Joker says to him, says to him, you like something about, like you, you know, you, I give meaning to you because you have to get me right. And Batman says, I don't care about you. Chris: Hmm. Degan: It's wild because the joker's face falls like, I like. What do you mean I don't have meaning? To you, like, I'm your arch enemy. I drive you crazy. I'm the one. And he's like, I, and, and it's like, why do they talk about indifference being the opposite of love? So we have, you know, Superman here, Batman, sorry, like kinda hollowed out, right? Without any sense of purpose or meaning. And, and I think that's not Superman's story, but a lot of these stories in. In the super kind of, you know, in, in these movies now, a lot of the narratives are actually about, I can't do this alone, right? In, in, you know, I actually need to reach out to others. We need to be a force together, et cetera, et cetera. And I think [00:34:00] that also is kind of reflect. I mean, Superman doesn't touch on that. In this, what I, what I did like, and I just wanna say this about the last scene, and, and this is a spoiler, so you can turn this off if you don't want to hear it. The last scene is very interesting. After all the violence, after you know, all the you know you know, Superman has to pull out, you know, this kind of bead, like, like DNA thing or whatever, that's into his lungs and he can hardly breathe. And, you know. Tense, right. And gross. And, and he's, you know, and it takes a lot out of him. The, and then, you know, the last scene l Lex Luthor is, you know is, has lost, he's lost his reputation. It's on the media. He's clearly lost his position. And Lex Luthor and Superman are just looking at each other. And there's except for a kind of comic piece, which I'll save about, you know, l Luthor getting kind of beaten up. They just look at each other and it's sort of anticlimactic in a way. And I thought if we're, if there's an honouring of that kind of feminine side, that doesn't have to end with Superman holding Lex [00:35:00] loser's throat and saying, I could kill you, but I won't. 'Cause I'm better than that. They're actually just each other. And Lex Luthor's face kind of falls in the way I was talking about the Joker. And then, and then he's, you know, taken off in a you know, in, in a, in a police cruiser and that, and that's it for him. But I thought that was a kind of honouring of that sense of like yeah. Of I you're defeated and I'm, and I'm, I'm, I don't have to make a big statement about it. It's obvious. Chris: Yeah. That's that. That was and like the directors didn't put that in by accident. Right? Like, moment was probably one of the better scenes in that movie because like you said, there wasn't, was like, Superman gave a little speech about what it's like to be human and, and all this kind of stuff. Very earnest, very Degan: Yeah. Chris: But I Degan: Very resonant, just to say very resonant. But as we speak, ICE is moving in throughout all the California [00:36:00] suburbs, throughout so much of America and taking people away, all of America who are supposedly aliens and not American enough and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, right? The resonance of that speech at the end was actually was really needed and really powerful in, in the midst of all of all this. Yeah. Chris: So yeah, and that's the context in which we're seeing it, but I felt that the most powerful emotionally was that moment where they were silent and, Degan: Yeah. Chris: The, the Lex Luthor, found the Lex Luthor a lot less interesting than pre, like in the Christopher Reeve movies. Of course it was Gene Hackman who was an amazing actor. But but this idea of, I need you to, you know, yell at me. For me to have power. Right. And, Degan: Mm-hmm. Chris: gave his little speech that he was done and he just looks at him. Degan: Yeah. Chris: And he's like, [00:37:00] 'cause he doesn't have anything more to say. And, and that's the real victory, right? Is, is like, he, he's not gonna fight anymore because he's done Degan: Yeah Chris: I mean, Luthor was done in all of that. So Degan: yeah. Chris: anyway, Degan: I think there's a part that's just like you, there, there, there are those moments that are, that are resonant and that are, and and it's also for, you know, for a summer movie. It's the summer movie, you know, in, in lots of ways. It's a, it's a popcorn, ice cream, you know, whatever you know, it's a movie to have like a, like a, Chris: For sure. Degan: having a nice. We Chris: can never, I mean, I can never watch a movie without thinking about what, I don't think there's any art that actually escapes you from the real world. Like the real world is Degan: Yeah. Chris: affecting the movie or Degan: Oh, totally. Yeah. I just mean, and, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, Chris: I am, Degan: that was, that was good to chat with you, Chris. I gotta, I gotta go. I've [00:38:00] got my twins coming and what are we watching? We're actually watching a series right now called, it's called the. Mysterious Benedict Society, which is what turned into, they did two seasons, a set of books, and they did a, a two seasons. And similarly, there's a, there's a almost like a, there's a kind of you know villain that wants to take over the world by a particular machine that is going into their minds. So pretty soon tonight, I will be entering that that world where they're trying to defeat this you know, this, this maniacal control man of control, right, Mr. Chris: Is it aimed at kids Degan: It's aimed at kids for sure. And it's, and it's really interesting. It has all the same kind of, you know, it's, you think about how much at the heart of these movies, the villain is about control, right. It is always, and, and we see, of course this is, this is so obvious, but we see that with Donald Trump so clearly, or wanting to control the judiciary, wanting to control the media. Wanting to control the story. Right. And so that is, you know, that's why I think actually, [00:39:00] and someone said this, I think this was Charles Beaudelaire, the, the, the French writer saying that we, that we need to tell the same stories or like the, the stories are the same. The stories actually that human beings need to hear are all the same, but we need to tell them in the language and the culture of the day. So in a way, you know, we've had stories that go back to the Greek times about power, imbalance of power, hunger, hunger to, to dominate. But we have to use the lexicon. We have to use the the, the, the details of today, the, the monkey troll farms, the metaphors. The, the, the, the language to be able to tell the story. So it resonates. So in that sense, it's as important as, you know, it's a summer movie and it's as important as anything. Closing Remarks and Credits --- Chris: Thank you for listening to What Kind of Man Are You? The podcast is hosted by Degan Davis and Chris Garbutt. Produced by Chris Garbutt and VQC Media. We would love [00:40:00] your feedback. Check out the show notes for ways to get in touch with us. Leave a comment or email us at chris@vqcmedia.me. Contact Chris about advertising and sponsorship opportunities. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and please give us a thumbs up or a five-star rating on your favourite platform.