Xiaoqing: Hi [00:01:00] everyone, and welcome to another episode of All Things EAP. I'm Xiaoqing from Xi'an Jiaotong- Liverpool University.

Michelle: Hi, I'm Michelle Evans from the University of Leeds.

Xiaoqing: In this episode, we're asking a question that many EAP teachers may have considered at some point in their careers, whether to do a doctorate or not. I. We are joined by Steve Kirk from Durham University, Qingyang Sun, from Xi'an Jiaotong - Liverpool, and David Collett from the De Montfort University in Kazakhstan, who each bring a different perspective based on their own context, career paths and experiences in EAP.
So Michelle, what stood out to you the most in this discussion?

Michelle: I really enjoyed listening to this episode. Uh, for me, what struck me was how much this discussion was tapping into other important topics about EAP practitioner development and EAP practice in different contexts. It was really highlighting for me [00:02:00] the social and structural aspects of. PhD study and having the opportunity to do a PhD. I think the discussion was happening at different levels or layers. So starting at the micro level , you know, the talk about individual motivations, drivers and circumstances to do a PhD and how this was being connected to. Wider discussion about the positioning and status of EAP centers, uh, or whatever they're called, within particular institutional cultures and perceptions and the values around that, and even national cultures. Then, uh, another kind of macro level then was how this was all connected to the field of EAP, you know, the role of scholarship informed practice. So it was really social and structural and how this was all kind of coming together. That, that really struck me in this discussion. But what [00:03:00] about you in the, in the, as you were talking, was there anything that was particularly surprising or interesting for you?

Xiaoqing: Yeah, like you said, I think what's great about this discussion is that it's not just, um, taking the qualification box. It contains so many layers within the wider EAP community. Um, and as someone who is doing the PhD myself, or lots of what they said really resonated, especially the tricky shift in identity from teacher to researcher that Steve mentioned.
Um, and there were lots of moments, um, when I thought I wish I've known that before I started. So we hope you enjoyed this episode and happy listening.
 
Discussion
Xiaoqing: Hi everyone. Thank you for joining us. Can you tell us a bit about who you are and where you are right now?

David: I'm David and I'm from the uk. I'm based in Almaty, Kazakhstan. I have many [00:04:00] roles, or we could call them gigs. My main role is teaching EAP to foundation students, a transnational university in Kazakhstan. I also provide postgraduate academic support for an MBA program. Outside of the university, I work as an examiner for the British Council IELTS in Apti exams and as an item writer for Trinity English exams. And this summer I'll be teaching on a six week online, uh, pre-session or course at the University of Sheffield. So I always keep like, to keep my options open and I love the challenges that these different roles, provide for me.

Steve: So I'm Steve, Steve Kirk. Um, I'm also from the UK. Based in the UK. Um, I work at Durham University in the, the north of the uk. my current role is head of our academic skills center, so I oversee academic language and literacy provision for all students at the university. Um, I've also previously been involved in, in teaching on MAT TESOL programs, but that work has recently [00:05:00] come to an end.
So I'm sort of fully in, in immersed in the EAP world, um, and very much still consider myself an EAP practitioner. I'm still involved in, in teaching across the university at, at all levels. And I'm also involved sort of in, in scholarship and so on around, uh, around EAP primarily.

Qingyang: So my name is Qingyang , I am currently a lecturer in Applied Linguistics at Xi'an Jiaotong-Liverpool University. , I did my PhD in 2020. Um, well before my PhD I didn't do much. teacher related job. So it was after I got a PhD that I, became an EAP teacher there. So I worked as an EAP teacher for three years, I have now become assistant professor.

Xiaoqing: Great. So, and Steve, why did you choose to pursue a doctorate?

Qingyang: So firstly, I, uh, I think it was in 2015 something. I was doing an MA in education at, uh, university of York. [00:06:00] Uh, what I realized is there were so many, you know, Chinese students, uh, studying there, doing education.
In China we have a saying like, uh, people who go to the UK to do a one year degree, they're called the watery mastery degree, which means like, you got a master's, but it's not very valuable so I, I guess that's. That's one reason why I decided to do a PhD and just maybe to prove that I can do better than the other students who got a master's. Um, and also, back then I wasn't very clear about what do I want to do at that time. But during my master's, I came to know, uh, EAP and academic writing, and I, soon realized how different it is to, to write in English and in Chinese. So I think it will be a big gap in the Chinese market. So I, uh, that, that motivated me to do a PhD in, on the topic of EAP. [00:07:00] Yeah.

Steve: Um, so for me, so I'd done a master's degree in applied Linguistics in, well, I finished it in 2001. Um, and. Got into EAP teaching and, and and program management and so on, but always remained fairly scholarly in my approach. I think, you know, I was always interested in keeping up with the field. From about 2000 and seven, eight, I started teaching a module on our MA program in teaching EAP. and so that kind of kept me. Uh, sort of scholarly engaged in, in the EAP field. and I suppose given that I was doing so much reading and thinking around EAP practices, um, also because I had questions about my own practice and things that we were doing on our pre sessional program in particular, um, and so I think just because of that, I thought I would put all of the thinking and reading to some kind of purpose. So I, I decided [00:08:00] that, I I would I would start a Doctorate for that reason. I, I was very lucky in being able to get funding from my institution. So that facilitated the, the journey for me. So I think it was primarily about putting work and thinking that I was already doing to some sort of focused purpose.

Xiaoqing: How about you, David? What influenced your decision not to take that path?

David: Hmm. Well, as I mentioned earlier, I've got lots of different roles in gigs. I've always had many options. Um, I've never liked to just have one particular job. If I took on a PhD, it's the time taken and the, the sheer, um, amount of time it would take, and then I wouldn't be able to do those other roles and gigs, which I really enjoy.
I think it's the time factor that really discouraged me from, um, pursuing or taking on a PhD. Um, perhaps another factor is the, the topic I [00:09:00] wasn't always sure which, areas to specialize in EAP, which would be the most suitable for me if I was going to work on this for four years. And I think the third factor is the return on investment. Um. So financially, um, I'm not sure whether I would, I might have got a higher salary in the long term in a particular job, but that would've been offset with all the other gigs I've been able to do during that time. So that's how my journey's taken me . 

Steve: It might be worth saying that I, um, so in my choice to do a doctorate, I deliberately chose to do, um. An EdD rather than a PhD. So I did a practice focused doctorate, because I, I knew I wanted to do something, but I. , David said he was, um, you know, un perhaps unsure of what the focus would be. I knew that I wanted to do it broadly within the area of EAP curriculum, EAP practice, pedagogic practice. Um, but I wasn't sure of my focus at all. So I chose the ed d route, the [00:10:00] practice focused doctorate so that I could. some of that journey to do the exploration and find my focus. So it did, did actually take me, um, at least two or three years.
I did it part-time, um, over quite a number of years. It took me about nine years part-time. Um, to finish my doctorate should have taken me six. Um, but it took me sort of half of that time to really focus, not half of that time, three years to focus down and, and find that topic for me.

David: I think steve's case. He, he had a, like a, a stable sort of secure job with a, a, a fixed contract. Maybe I'm, I'm talking on behalf of Steve, but that gave him the encouragement to, um, pursue something for nine years the same place that that would've been an advantage to have stayed at the same place from.

Steve: Yeah, a a hundred percent. I, I, I mean, I think I have benefited hugely from the stability of a full-time contract. a relatively senior role that was able to take me out of too much classroom teaching. I, I did find it [00:11:00] incredibly difficult to, to do just through sheer busyness. But, um, the, the, the twin. Um, privileges of having stable role and also having the financial funding for the PhD is a, is a huge, huge part of why I was able to do it and why I was able to succeed. Definitely, I.
 
Xiaoqing: Maybe we can talk a bit about challenges. Now, I'm sure there were points during the doctoral study that were particularly tough. So Qingyang and Steve, what was the hardest thing during that journey?

Qingyang: Uh, for me it, there wasn't too much, um, on the difficulty side, I guess you could say all those things like, uh, you know, studying a different country I was studying in the uk, um, and. So getting used to the local environments, that's part of it.
Um, during the PhD journey, I think, well, PhD is difficult for anyone, I think. Um, mainly [00:12:00] because, you know, uh, you need to work on this topic for so such long time and like during the process. Um, it also depends on your supervisor and, uh, in my case, one of my second supervisor, she was. she always raised very challenging questions to my writing, to my work. that time, I think I, I found it very difficult to navigate. Um, but in the end, I, I found that she was right and, and was good to have someone who, who raised those harsh questions on you so that you think more deeply about what you try to do. Yeah, so coping with that emotionally and also socially and, intellectually as well. I think it's, uh, it's quite difficult.

Steve: For me, I think there were probably, um, three things that were hardest. The first one was simply time. I [00:13:00] was. our summer pre-sessional course director at the time, it was incredibly busy. Large course, very complicated, and it ran over the three months of the summer, or it still still does. and so the principal time when a part-time doctoral student might have. to read and write and think and so on is over the summer. And I didn't have that time. That was a big part of why it took me nine years rather than six to finish. So I think time was a huge one. Um, second one was family. my wife was working full-time at the same time. I had a very young daughter, and so coming home from the full-time job, I didn't necessarily have my evenings free or my weekends free. There were family responsibilities to do the cooking, the cleaning, you know, child, minding, and so on. Um, and so finding the balance of being there for my wife and daughter at the same time as trying to find some time. [00:14:00] To work on the doctorate was, was really challenging. Um, and then I think the final one, I, I went through real identity struggles. I, so I was running. writing program, talking to students about their writing, talking to staff and running development sessions and staff inductions around academic writing and then going home and struggling with my own. Um, I remember the first time I produced a draft of my literature review. The feedback on it was that it was too descriptive and I was like, what? I was. Know, like the, the, the very things that I talked to our students about and things that I, you know, that write materials on and so on around criticality and, um, was apparently lacking in my literature review. So, you know, that was, that was really hard for me. Um, and I think just. Struggle, really, really struggling with my own sense of, confidence and writing and lack of productivity. Um, at the same time as running an academic writing [00:15:00] program created real conflicts and real struggles . so that emotional side of things was also quite a big part of, um. Of the challenge, I think.

David: It is an interesting point you mentioned there, Steve, especially about the identity. it's a bit like the, you know, if you put an analogy towards, a football coach, you don't have to be the best player to be the best coach. It reminds me of that sort of analogy, you know?

Steve: Well, yeah, that's, that's very generous. David. Yeah.

Qingyang: Yeah. Usually at the beginning of anyone's PhD journey, they're, they're not very likely to know. Exactly what they're doing. So it's, uh, I, I guess most of them get quite feedback at the beginning 

Steve: yeah, I mean, I suppose, um, it, it, it may may well be the case for, for lots of people or. Although, um, I guess different context, different institutions, it's different. But you know, for me, I started my doctoral journey in my forties. Um, and so having already [00:16:00] worked in EAP for kind of 15 plus years, having a relatively senior post to then kind of. learn to be vulnerable again. You know, learn to be a student again. Open yourself up to a kind of criticism that I, you know, I hadn't been used to for a long time and so on. Um, I wonder whether just the age and career stage. Figured a little bit in, in that sort of identity struggle and so on. I dunno, maybe the struggles are different, I, but I wonder whether, whether yes, sort of age was a factor for me. Perhaps

Xiaoqing: So how did you cope with these challenges? Did you have any strategies?

Steve: Um, my main strategy was to take three years longer than I should have done. Um, no, I mean, I didn't, I think one of the mistakes, well , from a completion perspective, one of the mistakes that I think I made for far too long was to put the doctorate last. um, once the day job was finished, once I, [00:17:00] you know, had spent time with my family, once I'd done the things in my personal life that needed to be done, then if there was time left at the end on a Sunday, Sunday evening. Then I would do some doctoral work. . Um, so it took me longer. only strategy that was then more successful was in my final year. And I realized that it was due or die time and and so in the final year, I really changed strategy. Um, and I, I put it first. I carved out more time. I just worked really, really hard in the final year. So yeah, so a, a change of strategy at the last minute.

Xiaoqing: I will try to learn from your experience, Steve, i'll make sure I make it a priority. So David, do you feel you've been able to achieve similar developments or progression in other ways?

David: Um, well, I think I've achieved quite a high level of development as a teacher without a PhD. I think. You know, I've managed to do research, um, [00:18:00] teachers and how they teach, listening for my masters. And, uh, I got a distinction. I had to do all of that by myself. Really, a lot of those research methods, I had to find out all of that by myself. It wasn't any much training, but I was able to read books and be advised. So I think, know, that, that really set me up for research when I did my masters.
Um, then I did a delta and obviously with a delta you have to put in, um, research into your, into your data. You had to apply theory to practice. Um, then I did a he he fellowship again, we ha looking at theory and practice. I think those three things really helped me to develop my teaching, the theory to practice. Uh, they weren't PhDs, but they were definitely relevant to pedagogy.
So I think, I, I really think I have developed, uh, quite well without a PhD. I've done some work recently for the University of supervising, [00:19:00] um, master's dissertations in grading them. So I was given the opportunity, despite having a master's, I was given that opportunity to supervise students. So I don't know if I've been that limited, to be honest. In, in terms of my teaching, probably the director of a course, uh, like Steve's doing.
I think it's, it's probably very different If I was in Steve's position, it, it would've helped me a lot more to get to that kind of position, but that's not something I've wanted to pursue, to be honest with you
 
Xiaoqing: So when I think about my own decision to do a PhD, I think I was the first drawn to the topic of my proposal. The topic is about socialization and competencies that ESOP teacher need to acquire. I came at it from the point of view. As a teacher, I was struggled to adapt at ESOP teaching and I wanted to investigate why.
But the more time I spend doing the research and the deeper I get into it, the more I actually. Interested by the process [00:20:00] of the research itself. I started to think myself as a researcher, I can see myself doing, uh, more research in other areas using the same skills I developed through the process of PhD.
So I wonder, has that been the case for you? And what kind of roles does research play in your identity?

Qingyang: Uh, yeah, I being academic versus being on a teaching role is quite different. Uh, so I remember back when I was the EAP teacher , our school of languages, there were several teachers who had a PhD degree, right? So, uh, but you can see the, the research output for us is very variable . Uh, you know, some people maybe hold a PhD, but they don't really want to do research anymore, even, uh, in, in, as a EAP teacher. But I guess, uh, my opinion is,. If you do research, then it gives you more sort of credentials, more power, maybe as well, even [00:21:00] as a EAP teacher, if you can also do research, um. Well, if you talk about currently in my role as a, assistant professor, then of course research is very important. I would place it even at a higher position than teaching perhaps because, you know, when, when it comes to evaluation, uh, research is rated perhaps the most important factor.

David: So you are in social sciences, so is is, is it really EAP related now

Qingyang: Uh, I, I can still do EAP related research, uh, but I can also research into something else.

David: So, so in, in your contract is, is most of your hours, um, committed to research or more teaching

Qingyang: Well in the, in the contract, uh, for our university, it's, it's 40% on research, 40% on teaching. Uh, that's what the contract says. But, you know, among the academics, we, we kind of all know that, uh, even in [00:22:00] this case, actually research is, is valued more, um, importantly than teaching actually.

David: Yeah, that's an interesting point. You know, in universities, what is valued more? For example, I'm working here in Alma, um, transnational University. I. And it's teaching led, , . Um, definitely not research led at all. Um, so there is a little funding for research, but it is, it's the, on us, on the onus of the, the employee if they want to do research. But definitely at this institution, they work more towards the students with their career focused, looking at jobs, how they enter the job market, you know, so it's very different.... 
Steve: for me, so at my institution, there's research, folk focused staff, but there are also teaching focused staff. And I am the latter. So I'm on the education track. So, um.
so, um. 50% of my role is dedicated to teaching and learning activity. 20% is um, dedicated to scholarship. [00:23:00] Um, and I wonder where the scholarship is maybe a wider term than research. So scholarship. research, traditionally understood. But I think, um, scholarship can also be about keeping up with the field. It's about theory, informed practice, um, it's about, um, scholarship informed curriculum development or teaching practice or, or similar. Um, so I. I would say that. broadly seen, plays quite a big part in my role. It's valued by the institution. Um, and increasingly so, uh, historically it's not been sort of strictly enforced depending on career stage. Um, interpretation of scholarship can range from attending a conference, perhaps giving a talk through to traditional research outputs.
So it's sort of understood in quite, um, diverse terms to, to cater for people at different stages of their career. Um. So, yeah, so I think, uh, research wise, [00:24:00] I have not been that active, I don't think. But scholarship wise, it, it threads through everything that I do, how, how we work with staff, how we think about professional development, how we think about curriculum design, materials development, pedagogic practice, and so on.
 
Xiaoqing: So another perspective that I will be interested to explore is the value of doing the doctoral or not doing the doctoral in relation to the EAP sector itself. I remember just a few weeks ago, I attended a ballet in Sessional six.
A presentation by Professor Douglas Spell from Ningbo Nottingham University, and he was looking at this question from the point of view of establishing the credibility of EAP practitioner within the eyes of Academy. As we know it is long being discussed in the field. EAP teachers might sometimes to be looked down the pound for not having the same qualification.
So professor. [00:25:00] Bell's point was that having the doctorate was like a badge of knowledge that would help us be seen as equals. Um, so I wonder where do you stand on that argument? Do you think more EAP practitioners should consider doing a doctorate for that reason?

Steve: I think. Collectively, yes. And other people have made these arguments too, right? I mean, Gemma Campion and Alex ding, Ian Bruce kind of writing about trajectories through the field and, um, the value of, of scholarship generally, I think it does raise our cultural capital, our symbolic capital, um, within and and beyond our own institutions. Um, certainly having the title doctor. a, a university like, my own Durham can make a, make a difference because everybody has that title and, and, well not everybody, but you know, a, a large number of people do, and even administrators have, um, have PhDs often. [00:26:00] So, um, the, the symbolic value I think is very. It, it, it can be valuable, but, um, but I'm, I'm not sure that it is necessarily for everybody immediately. We talked or mentioned, um, a second ago about sort of trajectories through EAP. Um, David mentioned, you know, a very successful career to date, um, through other forms of development, other forms of education. I think that's often the case for people within EAP. It was certainly my experience, I think I was a, a good, I would like to think a good EAP practitioner successful, EAP practitioner, a scholarly EAP practitioner without a doctorate. and I think that's often. Many people's experience and, and the doctorate might come later in the career.
Broadly speaking, I, I think, um, working towards one, if you are in an institution and a role that allows it, if your personal circumstances and [00:27:00] financial circumstances. A allow it, I think, um, it probably is for the better, both personally in terms of, um, the knowledge that you gain, the, the transformational impact, the things that it allows you to think and be and do that maybe you couldn't before.. And then at sector level, I think, um, as, as you said, it just, it just raises the, the profile through research outputs, through scholarly outputs, through, um, particular kinds of discourses, I think that then become shared with, with other. Communities of academic, communities of practice. um, so I do think broadly speaking, collectively for our, for our collective recognition, collective, knowledge base, connect, collective development and so on, I think it's a really good thing. But of course, individual circumstances and affordances will determine whether it's the right thing at a particular time for individuals.

David: Yeah, as a field, [00:28:00] EAPI that's questionable, I guess, because really is it a field or is it a support for other disciplines? You know, like engineering computing. These are fields, but you know, often here, it's, it's not considered as a field. It's considered as a support for other disciplines. How do we support disciplines, um, directly, you know, um, doing a PhD on, on a particular E eight P support for a particular discipline is very relevant and very useful. But when it's generalized, it might be more questionable whether it's useful for our learners or our discipline.
 
Xiaoqing: Another angle I'm interested to look at is culture. At the moment in China, especially for younger people, there is a lot of pressure to collect more qualifications. Sometimes it feels like it is a rat race to compete in the job market by gaining more higher level of qualifications. And of course, whether it is conscious or not, they all played into the decision making [00:29:00] process of why I felt I need to do a PhD.
But I'm aware that in other places or other institutional cultures that may not be an influence or that may be a different cultural influences. So to what extent do you think culture, national culture, or institutional culture plays a role in this doctoral decision?

Qingyang: As for me, I think it really depends on the, the national and the institutional context. I think one trend I can observe is that the more prestigious university you work at, the more likely it is that you, you would need a PhD to, to survive there. So I can know the, the, the teachers in Hong Kong, uh, and even their EAP centers, I think all of them hold PhD degrees and are actively doing research. So it, really depends on the context in. Like in China actually, uh, if you're talking about those traditional Chinese universities, well [00:30:00] there, there were lower ranking universities, uh, where some of the, uh, lecturers and subjects in the, in the academic disciplines, they, they don't hold a, a PhD degree. ,, It's a historical thing, like they, back then they didn't need a PhD to do, uh, to be a lecturer in engineering, for example. 

David: I think like, uh, Qing said, um, in places like Hong Kong, um, Singapore and some of the Arabic, um, countries, it it's compulsory to have a PhD if you want to join their university in their, in their department. Yeah. So culture does play a significant part, I guess here in Kazakhstan it's not such a big, doesn't play such a big importance. But there are, there is a university here, which would obviously prefer a PhD over a master's. Yeah. So you're obviously gonna, if you do have a PhD, you're gonna get into that university. Uh, I think it's not so much about culture, I think it's more about, um, the [00:31:00] university in the, how prestigious that or high ranking that university is.

Steve: I am not, I'm not sure if it's necessarily about rank. Well, I mean, maybe it is, but I think there's also an important, um, interaction between. What you might call the institutional culture and then the perception of EAP itself, academic literacy or, or however it might be labeled elsewhere in the world. Um , if EAP is seen as, as David described it earlier, as a sort of support department that services the departments, um, then. And if it's seen primarily in sort of isolated teaching and learning oriented terms, then perhaps the institutional buy-in for EAP staff doing doctorates and kind of financing that and, and having time for scholarship and research is probably fairly limited.
And, and for many people it may be non-existent [00:32:00] because of that. That interaction. if you are in an institution, you may be in an institution that is relatively prestigious, um, but doesn't value its EAP unit,

David: Good point.

Steve: case the people within the center may have no or affordance or finance to do a doctorate. Um, conversely you could be at a, um, a relatively low ranking university in, in national, international scales. But have an institution that really understands why academic literacy practices matter, um, and why scholarship in that area may also be valuable. And so there might be then more affordances time and, and money for that kind of thing. So, um, so I think culture is, and, and maybe center culture is part of it, but then positioning of. EAP academic literacy and how it's perceived by the institution, I think plays a big part. And I wonder actually whether in some cases, some people at least [00:33:00] having doctorates and perhaps moving into positions of responsibility where they're sitting on committees interacting with the wider university. May in some cases be able to shape that relationship. You may be able to change the perception of academic literacy, EAP, and its value to the wider institution within that university, and perhaps then open up more possibilities for scholarship time, money that might lead to other people doing doctorates in the long term. I think it, it's complex and I think a number of things interact.
 
Xiaoqing: Okay, let's finish off with a few words of advice. So what advice would you give to an EAP teacher currently considering whether to do a doctoral study?

David: My advice is think a bit more broadly, just not about your own personal gain or how, how you could shape, um. The field and help others. That's what I would say. [00:34:00] Yeah.

Qingyang: I think the first thing, uh, you need to think about is, uh, to look for information really. So, um, all the information about different programs, like what is the entry requirements?
And also the , information like tuition fees, and, uh the requirement for graduation is all different in different countries and in different institutions . And here, of course, , you need to also think that currently for the PhD supervisors now, there are plenty of competition there.. , Uh, you might need to contact them for a sustained period of time uh, so if you can form a sort of relationship with that potential supervisor, then , that one thing is you are more likely to get a PhD studentship and also , you, you can get more information from that supervisor. Uh, now this is very difficult if you haven't. Met that supervisor in person and you are just con, you're [00:35:00] just contacting them via email, um, because they don't know who you are.
So a better approach may be just attend more conferences. Um, so you get the chance to talk to those potential supervisor in person and that that will give you more chance for, uh, getting a PhD. 

Steve: Um, I think I would say, what would I say? I would say I. a conversation. You know, I, I think it's really something to talk to as many people about as possible. , I mean, obviously people need to read and begin to find a focus. , Many people will change during the course of their doctorate when I'm, the, my, my proposal document at the beginning of my PhD or beginning of my EdD. then what the project actually became, uh, were different. I mean, they were still within EAP, but, um, really quite different. So I don't think, um, so people should not be. off from [00:36:00] starting because they don't have a fixed idea of what they want to do.
So I think reading widely, um, talking widely to as many people, to to colleagues, externally, if you can. Get online. Some listeners may be aware of the, there's, there's a BALEAP group that, um, runs about once a month called STEPS. And it's a really which I. For whoever is at whatever stage. so I would say yes, start a conversation with as many people as possible, and then of course, consider just the things roundabout.
If you've got the financial support, if you think you've got the, the institutional stability and, and the family situation to allow for it. It, it is a long journey. It's a long haul. Um, and you do have to be committed. It, it, it does take quite a lot out of you. So, um, so I think just considering that, that wider. That wider context as well might be a useful thing.
 
Xiaoqing: Now we're going to hear a voice note [00:37:00] from Dr. Suzie Cowley-Haselden from Warwick University who organizes the STEPS sessions for doctor candidates in the EAP field.

Podcast Susie STEPS: A few years ago when Letitia Beck and I were researching publications officers for BALEAP, we talked about how there was little space for. Those in EAP who were interested in research or, or doing doctoral study to get together and, and kind of talk about their experiences and form a bit of a support network.

So that's when we came up with the STEPS, sessions, steps stands for sharing your , thoughts, , experiences, problems and successes in your research. And it's gone so well. Um, it's an amazing group of people and it, they really do share their experiences and their problems and, and their successes.
I think it's been really beneficial. It's really nice to hear that, that people think that. So, um, we're always open to new people, so if anybody would like to join, all they need to do is to email [00:38:00] me. Susie.Cowley-Haselden@warwick.ac.uk.