[00:00:00] Welcome --- Chris: Welcome to season two of What Kind of Man Are You? Degan: We are living in a moment where the ground is shifting under our feet. Politics, identity, even basic humanity, it all feels up for grabs. As men, we're asking, what's our role in all this? Chris: Time to tear up the old playbook. Do we step back or we finally reckon with what it means to be a man who actually gives a damn? Degan: This is What Kind of Man Are You? The podcast where we untangle masculinity, privilege, and the messy work of showing up. I'm Degan Davis, a therapist, writer, and author of the poetry collection. What Kind of Man Are You? Chris: And I am writer and producer, Chris Garbutt. Each episode we'll tackle the big questions. How do we be better allies? How do we confront fear, in the world and in ourselves? And what's our [00:01:00] responsibility when the stakes are this high? Degan: No easy answers. Just real talk about shame, courage, and the small acts that aren't so small, like standing up when it counts. Chris: So whether you're here to rethink masculinity, fight for justice, or just feel a little less alone in the chaos, let's get into it. Degan: Welcome everybody toWhat Kind Of man Are You? Discussing the Bob Dylan Film --- Degan: And we are gonna be talking to about Bob Dylan film with Timothee Chalamet. A Complete Unknown. Yeah. I'm just having an image. I'm just thinking about, I don't know if you, I rarely see the Oscars, but I, I ordered a television just for the Oscars, Oh, really? For a couple of days. And I could see, him, Timothee Chalamet with his, girlfriend, one of the Kardashians or something. And, Chris: Seriously? Degan: Yeah. Chris: Oh, okay. Degan: And,I felt the youth in him. He is [00:02:00] still a young guy, isn't he? And we talked about The Brutalist right before,and, Adrian Brody won for that, but you could, they were I think the main contenders and, anyway. I wanna ask you about the film, where we're gonna talk about the film. Mainly that's what we're gonna do. This episode. of course we talk about man episode and masculinity episode. Yeah. For this episode. Episode, yeah. Chris: Episode we're gonna talk about, the, the man, the myth legend. That's right, Bob Dylan as portrayed it A Complete Unknown, Give me, gimme a Do you wanna give us a little shape of the story of where, Yeah. So the, the story is basically the period where he first arrives in New York City to the time where, he goes from being, basically goes electric, right? Yeah. and like he was Degan: Judas Chris: Like yeah. The top folk singer in America for a while. Yeah. and then he decided to, pick up an electric guitar and, the folkies went crazy. so that's the, the arc [00:03:00] classic time of his life that, if you know anything about Bob Dylan, you know about that period because he was a folk singer who became a rock singer. But the truth is. He's a musician. would you call him a polyglot musician Degan: Yeah, in that way I think he's always re maybe reinventing. Like he certainly invented himself, right? Yeah. Like when he decided to become Bob Dylan, and not Robert Zimmerman, he had done his homework, he had listened, he had learned his literally, hundreds and hundreds if not thousands of folk songs and he'd gone back through the catalog. But I think, I read Chronicles. his beautiful book from I Dunno, 20 years ago. In it, there's, I think it's a, you can say reinvention or he's always just wanting to push himself, and I think in that book he talks about,how. he and I can't remember the musical piece of it, but he talks about re-envisioning chord structures. And then he relearned a lot of his songs with this other chord structure pattern. And [00:04:00] then, and I know he said he plays often live with that to give the, I'm not sure what the exact reason for it was, but it certainly does give the songs a different emphasis. So what did you think of it? Chris: I'll also just say, there's a lot of background noise. I dunno if that's coming through, but we're sitting on the patio at Burdock at, Degan: Yeah, it's Chris's first patio in, Chris: Of the year. Yeah. It's not my first patio ever. Yeah. Timothee Chalamet's Performance --- Chris: So we're, came here to talk about this movie and so yeah, I, would say I have a lot to say about it and my first first reaction was, I thought it was a really great movie. And I think that was a reaction to like how good the acting was. Like Timothee Chalamet is just incredible.He, does a very good Dylan. My understanding is he sang those songs himself. Degan: Absolutely. And learned all the guitar work. Chris: Learned all the guitar. So that's pretty impressive. Yeah. And so Monica Marie [00:05:00] Barbaro played Joan Baez. All of those characters were really good. Ed Norton plays Pete Seeger Degan: brilliantly, Chris: which is just incredible. Degan: He almost steals it in a strange way. He's so understand, talking for a minute about MAs. let's come back to that because he is like the,the quiet, gentle masculine soul energy. And Bob, and you also have Johnny Cash coming in as they're really the other male figures. But Pete Seeger really is that. steady, but more, yeah, less taken with ego, in that way. Chris: Yeah. And a very, like a very gentle soul in the movie. And, and like it took me a while. I was like, is that Ed Norton? I couldn't be sure 'cause I generally think of Ed Norton as having a more, raw characterin his roles. I really enjoyed all of that. And of course, I would say 90% of the songs I knew pretty well. And I [00:06:00] was, enjoying that. and,there was, he went to visit Woody Guthrie. And that was pretty moving. and Woody Guthrie was, towards the end of his was it Parkinson's he had or it was, or lung cancer. It was very serious. yeah, Degan: He couldn't move properly. He could hardly couldn't, he couldn't talk very well. Chris: Couldn't very well. and so he visited him in the hospital with and without Pete Seeger there. Yeah. And so all of that I found really quite moving. But as time went on, and the truth is in the movie, he grows into himself, he becomes this, he becomes a star During this period. and then he like, turns on the folk world and goes electric and, a lot of the people like, where was it? It was a, what was the festival? It was a folk festival. Degan: I think it was the Newport. Newport Folk Festival. Chris: The newport Folk Festival. And he, so the organizers of the festival are infuriated that he's done this and he did it [00:07:00] without permission. And this is where I start to get a little,on the one hand it's like he had to go in the direction. He had to follow his bliss. Yeah, I'm cool with that. But, there's there's one thing that's quite obvious that I think everyone would agree with is that he was really terrible towards women and, he was, I can see why women were attracted to him and he seemed like he was very soulful in the way he talked and the things that mattered to him, but, at the same time, he kind of played the two women in his life. Like he didn't really break up with one before. Going with another and he didn't really want to. And that's one part of it. But the other. Which is more of a criticism of the character. so in a way that's fine. I don't, you don't necessarily like what the character did, but it was well [00:08:00] depicted. Degan: Yeah. Chris: But the thing that I found about this movie is it felt a bit like it was full of tropes of the kind of artist mentality the artist has to follow his muse wherever it takes him and yeah, and very male that way. And this kind of, almost this great man theory, you know, there's this idea. He was a great man. So it was what he had to do. And he didn't have to piss everyone off by going electric on stage at a folk festival, but he did. I just feel like there's this sense that the artist's, genius has to come above everything else In spite of who gets, and I just find that's a trope in movies and in the end I've come to feel like, very well executed movie, but [00:09:00] eh, you know, that story was just like yet another, story of a great artist who goes his own path Degan: It's true when you say earlier that, that this is a section of his life that people know a lot and and it has drama to it, right? If you're gonna choose to write the story. Okay. We'll begin with him being a complete unknown. He gets picked up. Pete Seeger helps him out. He starts playing on open stages. He finds his voice,and everything else. And then, he sloughs off, Let's go of some of that. Chris: Drops the drops. Yeah. The people who brought him to where he, Degan: I will say I, I admire, I know what you mean about that trope piece for sure. I, and I, it would be nice to be able to just follow your art without necessarily like hurting people around you. Do you know what I mean? And that, that seems to be something like, you think about, we're talking about this now in 2025 like the Me Too movement really brought a [00:10:00] lot of awareness to just like the kind of like it. it's harder now for that trope to be part of something on its own. Yeah. it's like that, that it worked there because it was a biopic of Dylan. Chris: Yeah. Degan: And so we can follow it and it was based on the book and everything. And so that, but I think in terms of a narrative today. Now you have my daughter's been into that Daisy Jones and the Six. Chris: Oh, yeah. I Haven't seen that yet. Degan: A Fleetwood Mac type band and everything. I haven't seen it all, but we've been learning some of the songs, which are pretty good. And,I, I don't think you would necessarily get away with that. the great man, the genius theory person doing whatever they want. And at least people are getting called on it now, right? Particularly those really who am I thinking of P Diddy. Yeah. And also, RJ Kelly. R Kelly. Yes. R Kelly. So many r, so many, unfortunately. R Kelly. So many. Yeah. And then now you're hearing like, oh, who is at these parties like Jay-Z and Anyway, which, whatever. There's a lot's going on there. Yeah. Chris: But that's, see, that's the thing though, is [00:11:00] that I don't want to criticize the movie for saying, this man was flawed. But there is, yeah. you think about the golden age of television and all these shows that are about flawed men, right? And yeah. Mad Men, Sopranos,Breaking Bad, all this kind of thing. and obviously Bob Dylan isn't like any of those characters. But at the same time, what did we, what was new about that? What was fresh about that? Degan: About the film movie? Chris: About the movie? Degan: Yeah. Yeah. And what I brought, in that way. I don't think it was like, it's not, it wasn't an art film. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. It wasn't a film that was trying to get under, it was a film that was trying to tell a particular story. Yeah. And I think it was just done really well, like Timothee Chalamet singing, not just the singing, the the gestures that, that he took. the kind of blank look, the kind of, yeah. the inflection of his voice, the focus point. The eyes the hooded [00:12:00] eyes. Anything else? Yeah. he it's so he was a conoisseur. He really did a remarkable job. And the singing was amazing. My mom the other day went and bought the CD of him singing the Dylan songs, Chris: Oh, of the Timothee Chalamet? Degan: Yeah. Chris: Oh, wow. Degan: She, yeah, she's probably the last person on earth to be buying CDs. It's sweet, she has a CD player. Joan Baez and Gender Dynamics --- Degan: But yeah, And just talking about Joan Baez for one moment In the depiction. I think, if you think about what this is, a movie, I think it really, like she was the strongest female character in the film. I don't even know, they obviously, I think they, they chose to write her that way. And I think she probably was. I don't know her biography that way, but they, but if you think about the balance of the film, I think you have Johnny Cash and Dylan on one hand, or like the men, almost like this wall of men, right? You know what, they come in a limo to that scene where they're playing atthe Newport Report Folk Festival in their black cars. They come in, everyone scatters. It's a bunch of men with them, maybe a bodyguard or two. They come in, they do their thing. There's women hanging on the outside. It's very, it almost looks like a I don't [00:13:00] know,like a Sopranos, but the sixties, right? Yeah. But you have her going, holding her ground, singing Holding her ground, with the scene when she's strumming and she turns to, and gives on the finger mid strum. Yeah. and I think that just. Chris: I don't know. Hey, it's, but you know what that made me feel? It's let's see a movie about Joan Baez. She seems actually more interesting than Bob Dylan. Degan: I think, I think Bob Dylan is one of the great songwriters ever, and,I am way more, I dunno, I'm just, I am more interested in him as a singer and I still think he's interesting to, to write, to film, Chris: I guess that's, to me, if you're going to tell the story of Dylan, why would you tell the story that everybody knows the best be, because that's what people wanna see, Degan: Yeah. it's interesting right? it's it's very much along the lines of the kind of films that have come out around musicians recently, the Elton John film a couple of years ago. The Freddie Mercury [00:14:00] film. They're like from beginning to stardom. Yeah. And I mean there's a certain trope in that is Hey, I want the Elvis. The Elvis was a little bit different. That was just really. A beginning, right? yeah. but people are interested in that. I dunno if you saw this, I'm not there. That Dylan film, Chris: I actually haven't seen that one. And I was really interested in it, Degan: that's been talked about and written up for a long time, but that's a much more interesting film at heart. Yeah. And that's multiple people playing. Yeah. Multiple Dylans. Yeah. and,and including Cate Blanchet. Yeah. Who is like one of my favourite Dylans of those Dylans. And,but just to say, that's really looking at, the ideas. Walt Whitman says we contain multitudes. either here's the multitude multitudes of Dylan in that way, and that's a movie that was not interested in just simply telling one story at all. It was like breaking him down, atomizing him and saying, okay, there are different parts and let's hear them, let's hear about them. Chris: Maybe that's what I was feeling about this movie. again, everything you say I agree with in terms of the [00:15:00] nuances of the character. And how Timothee Chalamet played him. and even the story is really interesting. Yeah. and there's a sort of betrayal of a mentor there, which is the Pete Seeger movie. Yeah. Where Pete Seeger is really brought Bob Dylan into the public eye and gave him all the opportunities and there's a sense that Bob Dylan left him behind, even whether that's true or not. And so all of that was moving, but I guess for me it's like I didn't feel like he contained multitudes in that movie. No. he was Degan: that wasn't the idea. No, that wasn't me. Wasn't, yeah. yeah. The Trope of the Male Genius --- Chris: but you were, I'm interested in what you were getting at before about, these different male singers and the masculinity and do you think they were archetypes or of these different types of men, or where were you going with that? Degan: Yeah, I guess to me the ones that stand out the most are Johnny Cash and Dylan. Johnny Cash was played well, in it and,I [00:16:00] think you named it with, with that the kind of like male genius and the like, let's just step out of the way because, it's a hurricane force. and because that we're gonna step out of its way and we're gonna be bowled over by it. I don't know. They just seem very much sort of men of their, of the time,Yeah. I don't know. I'm just thinking in contrast. You think about, you think about the Beatles,and I think, have you seen, Get Back the Disney Chris: Oh, all the, footage from the footage recording? Degan: Yeah. Chris: I. Yeah. All of it. Degan: Yeah. It's remarkable, isn't it? Just, it's just interesting to look, that's the same time period, literally, He's coming in. Chris: Yeah. Get Back is probably five years later. Degan: Later. from the electrification of Dylan, you mean? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That's what Dylan's an absolute like household name and has torn the world up and yeah, this movie, if you think about it, it didn't really like, it didn't really. Do much with that. Yeah. It didn't really, I think this movie was the, [00:17:00] was a biopic, as we said. It wasn't actually saying, let's look at all the complexities. If anything, it contrasted Pete Seeger and Joan Baez on one side as being, a little more humane, a like less dick waddy. Yeah. and Dylan on the other side, of just being like, I'm doing my thing here. I don't think, I don't, I can't see too much depth except to say it was really well done film. Yeah. I did love, I did, particularly in terms of scenes, I loved, when the Cuban Missile Crisis is on. and they're literally all the New Yorkers, some of 'em are fleeing. Like that, that I really felt the kind of anxiety in the air. Chris: It did give a really good sense of, what the time must have been like. Yeah. That time, we were, we, neither of us were even born then, but, but oh yeah, I. Felt, I did feel like I was there. Yeah. And kudos to that. There was lots of, he was aware of what was happening in the world and Oh, yeah. And in fact his, he got that from Woody Guthrie, I think. and the whole totally point of music [00:18:00] was to change the world, I think for him. Degan: Yeah. certainly at that point, he is responding, he's deeply, inspired by Woody Guthrie. Of course. Yeah. Then you have the power when him play of him playing the times they are changing, which I think they captured really well too. When you have the power of the scene, we're talking about the, in 1962, the Cuban Missile Crisis of him playing Masters of War,and I love that scene because you got Joan Baez packing up her things and feeling like you, you feel the fear. Through her and she heads out, I'm sure if this was happening, if that happened as it is, it's curious,and then she goes into that dark bar and hears him playing that song, and we're hearing those lyrics through her eyes. That's a one of those wild songs. Like it's hard to write a political song, Oh, it's, sure. Chris: It's hard. and 'cause you can't be you can't be didactic. you can't be like trying to teach a lesson. Degan: No, but I think his rage. Actually, this is one of the times where I think rage actually gives it form. Yeah. and the simplicity of the chords. Chris: And the thing [00:19:00] was like, usually you can't get away with, I have a message and I'm gonna Oh. But that's what that song actually does. Yeah. I think it does it really well. Degan: Think he calls people out so directly. Yeah. Yeah. It's like he, I maybe it's a question of, It's like he literally calls them on the carpet, Exactly. Chris: Okay. Come on. Next. Degan: Yes. Yeah. Chris: Stop criticizing what you don't understand. Degan: Yeah. Yes. It's funny. I Dylan's Influence and Legacy --- Degan: always think about, another wonderful protest singer who I love, protest singer. There you go. Like Bob Dylan would like cringe hearing that at that time. He would've been called a protest singer. But,he was always doing what he wanted to do, which was grow. if you're not busy being born, you're busy dying. That's a line. Chris: That's a quote. Degan: That's a quote, yeah. From Dylan. And so he, whatever, he was just like doing that. It makes me think of Billy Bragg a little bit, who's, ultimately I've always think, I love his political songs, but I love his love songs more, Yeah. It's really hard to write a political song, but then you have Bob Dylan did such a remarkable hurricane. [00:20:00] That's one of my favourites. Yeah. Let's talk, can we talk a little, Chris: that's a political song too. Oh, totally. Degan: A totally political song and so narrative, to Absolutely a story, there's a bar, there's a bar down the street, Hurricanes. Oh, yeah. partially based on, on the hurricane. And, do you know, can I ask you, can we just, can we talked about the film and I think we agree it's a kind of a biopic Yeah. Favourite Dylan --- Degan: in this, can we, can I ask you about Dylan for a little bit? Like what, any songs that really mean something to you? Do you have a favourite, do you have any favourite lines of any Bill Dylan song? What does he, what is he to you? Chris: So first of all, I don't get Dylan the way a lot of my friends do. so I like Dylan's music. when he got a Nobel Prize I was like, huh. But, but, I would, but I would, so my favourite song of his is Subterranean Homesick Blues 'cause I just love, I love the musicality. He the fact that he's almost rapping at a time Yeah. When that barely existed. Yeah. And of course the video with [00:21:00] him holding all the cards and dropping Degan: the relentlessness of the lyric of Chris: The relentlessness of the lyrics. And it, it actually is a bit of a, I wouldn't say it's a protest song, but it's a social commentary. Yeah. And, you know that, and it's got a lot of energy and yeah. So that would be, that's a great song. My favourite. Nice. favourite. Degan: I think my favourite is one. A friend of mine played me in Japan many years ago. It's, Blind Willie McTell, Blind Willie McTell. Chris: That's what the song, that's what the song's called. Oh, okay. Degan: Yeah. It's be, it's absolutely beautiful. Dylan's Nobel Prize and Impact --- Degan: I actually think he absolutely deserved it. Was the Pulitzer he got right? Was it? Or was it No, it was a Nobel Prize for literature. Yeah. I back it, I back him. I think he's the only singer, only songwriter to ever be awarded that. And I love it. I love it. That a, I love it that a song that, a minstrel, that a songwriter can be seen in the same like light as Tomas Transtromer and, all these one great, poets and writers,but that song, it's beautiful. It's [00:22:00] simple. and, he's done a few versions with Mark Knopfler, actually. There's, I don't know. I just lyrically love it. It paints this incredible picture. If I can remember a couple of lines. See the arrows on the dark? I'm looking out the window of the St. James Hotel. Chris: There is a way, it's not just the, so like in terms of the poetry of it, there is a, use of language that you don't get from anyone else. And with Dylan you mean. With Dylan. Yeah. and even All Along the Watchtower, which is probably my favourite cover of a Dylan song. 'Cause I love Jimi Hendrix version of it. Yeah. but there's something about. I don't even know exactly what's going on or what he's trying to say, but there's a visual component to it, even saying there must be some kind of way out of here, like every single word feels perfectly placed there. [00:23:00] Yeah. And that's the first line. Yeah. And you know exactly what kind of feeling you're getting into. Yeah. Just from that first line. Degan: This is the moment this song opened up for me. and it was. the last words of, Blind Willie McTell. I'm gazing out the window of that St. James Hotel, and I know no one can sing the blues, like Blind Willie McTell. But he goes through the, he goes through the entire history, I've seen the arrow on the doorpost. Chris: Saying this land is condemned all the way from New Orleans to Jerusalem. I traveled through East Texas where many martyrs fell andno one can sing the blues, like Blind Willie McTell, I dunno, the honoringof him. It's just beautiful. And what were you just saying? You were talking about Oh, lyrics, then think about something like a song Like A Hard Rain's Gonna Fall. That's, that's a wild song. I wanna pull it up for a sec, because those lyrics are, if you think about the Beat poets fifties onward, that has a kind of beat sensibility to it. None is the number. It's strange, [00:24:00] almost like hallucinogenic poetry, It's also a fantastic name for a song. Degan: When I talked earlier about, like the idea of calling him a protest singer. You can absolutely say, okay, this is a protest song, right? Like that there's the, in the way that. The society I'm surrounded by is, there's a lot of problems here, right? Yeah. And anybody's, he's looking at it. It's so epic. I stumbled on the side of 12 Misty Mountains. I've walked and I've crawled on six crooked highways. I've stepped in the middle of seven sad forests. I've been out in, in, in front of a dozen dead oceans. we've got all this environmental stuff. We have,possibility of nuclear annihilation that we were just talking about and it's a hard rain gonna fall. We've got like acid rain. It wasn't, it wasn't, wasn't wiped out until after the Reagan years, so we probably Chris: Oh yeah the Reagan years were where it came to, it came to a head. Degan: But this would've been. This, but it was still happening earlier. Yeah. And then it came to a head there. but just wanna say there's,the line where the [00:25:00] executioner's face is always well hidden, where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten, where black is the color and none, where none is the number. And I'll tell it and think it, and. Speak it and breathe it and reflect it from the mountains so all souls can see it. Then I'll stand on the ocean until I start sinking. But I'll know my song well before I start singing. And it's a hard rain's gonna fall. It's protest, but it feels like the rhythm of it, it could just be spoken and it would stand as poetry. and it's a song that transcends just its age, just that, that period. Black is the color. None is the number. Yeah, it's he's good. He's pretty good. Chris: Yeah. I think he knows his shit. One thing I will say is because we're, this movie came out at a very particular time In our history and Right. Does Protest Music Even Exist Anymore? --- Chris: Bob Dylan May not have loved being called a protest singer, but he came out of the protest movement for sure. Yeah. [00:26:00] And, I do remember thinking, 'cause we watched this a couple months ago and this was, Degan: Just before Trump had actually been inaugurated, right? Chris: Yeah. I don't know if it was before or just after, but there was, a thought came across my mind is who's gonna be our Dylan? Today. Yeah. but broader, that's a good question. who, and I guess this kind of brings up, and I think we have a lot to talk about in this season actually. Around what men are gonna stand up, right? Yeah. Not stand up like some bro who, wants to be a king of the world or something, but yeah, stand up for those who are being trodden upon. And I go back to Woody Guthrie and his songs were about the working people and yeah and this land is our land, right? You belong and, and I think that kind of [00:27:00] influence on Bob Dylan. And so we're starting to see it actually, I think we're starting to see some, they aren't famous yet, but every now and then I'll come across someone on social media or some something or who does a really good song about what's going on in the world right now. And I see a lot of people saying art is resistance. Degan: It's, when you say a man who knows who it will be? Do you know? who will, Chris: it doesn't have to be a man. Yeah. But I, what I wanna know is what are the men gonna do in this context of, this sort of hyper masculine Yeah. Backlash to Me Too, and Degan: Yeah. And Chris: everything, which is, Degan: It's strange talking about this and I know we're gonna do another. Talk about it, the young men of today, statistically are they're right wing and they put Trump in office among other reasons. And it's happening. They're more right. I mean it's either more, right? And it's interesting right now the polls have just closed here. They're close. Close eight. [00:28:00] Chris: Yeah. we're talking on election Canada. Degan: We're talking on election Canada. In Canada, yeah. a April 28th thousand 25. Wow. and, and just the other night, I was biking downtown, Saturday night, and I just heard this guy shout to his friend, you're voting conservative, right? Fuck, right dude. And it's like, fuck yeah. And it was that voice is a true one. like they, they, the right has captured the, the energy of men, right? Right now. And so that, that's a, in the sixties what Dylan was doing, that was the, obviously you had people who were counter to it, but culturally. That absolutely dominated the sixties. that sense of, okay, we're done with this kind of materialism here of the 1950s and where we're going. We're done with Vietnam. We're done. Yeah. We were yearning for something, whatever. Chris: They weren't done with Vietnam. Degan: They weren't done with Vietnam. No. Chris: But they wanted to be, they wanted to protested. Degan: They were. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. yeah, I don't know. I just think. When you say who is a voice that way? Music in Social Movements --- Degan: I, [00:29:00] you know what I'm caught with, just thinking about that now is how, this is such an obvious thing to say, but how crucial music was to that. Yeah. Whole movement and Absolutely. And, and I can't even think in recent times, like you think about U2 in the eighties and nineties, writing about the troubles in Ireland, Sunday, Bloody Sunday, New Year's Day, Bullet, the Blue Sky, which is about Central America. There's a band that could write political songs that were great. But you think today, who is even forget about being a leader and someone who's, everyone is humming, but who is even writing protests. Who is writing songs that have, that delve this deeply into culture and reveal it for what it is in an artful way. And I'm sure they're out there, but none are coming immediately to mind right now. Yeah. Are they to you? I think that's a really interesting question. Chris: Not off the top of my head, of course. We'll stop recording. And we'll think of five. Yeah, like five. Yeah. I think you're right, but,not to say there's not a lot of great music out there, but You think about [00:30:00] before all of, before Dylan particularly. Yeah. It was like bubblegum pop was the big Yeah. Kind of thing. Like Paul Anka and, yeah. And the the, He's So Fine. Or Yeah. Or Leader of the Pack and all this kind of thing. Yeah. It was, interesting music and fun to listen to, but it was not sure, it had nothing to do with what was really happening in the world. Yeah. Yeah. So it'll be, that's, that's what I'm interested in right now. Yeah. 'cause I think they're out there but they haven't got famous yet. Degan: It's interesting too, right? And I'm not gonna blame 'cause we always have record companies and record companies have an enormous amount of power. We always have marketing that has an enormous amount of power. But we have today in Spotify and Apple Music and we know the algorithms of Spotify absolutely support those who have already you know Oh, sure. Yeah. Have created a lot. And they'll put together,playlists and the rest of it with their algorithms. And it's not that it's not out there, but, I, I do, we, it's just like in the way we now, absorb media. We take the media in that reminds us, [00:31:00] that reflects back who we are in a lot of ways. And we do the same with music and I guess we could have, I'd love to keep talking about this idea of musicians and musicians, perhaps male musicians that are writing about male experience and reflecting back the time, in whatever way. Chris: I We ask our waiter what he thinks --- Chris: , I think that might be a good place to wrap up because yeah, there's a lot of threads that we could pull on Yeah. From there. But they take us down a whole new totally direction. 'cause you talked about, this idea of right wing manosphere. Yeah. Grabbing the masculinity. Yeah. Degan: The young men here. Chris: Yeah. and I know that you and I have had conversations, and I think we even talked briefly about it on record, about the left, whatever that might mean. Not really having an alternative for that. Yeah. And losing that space because, what does it mean to be a left wing man in this space? Degan: That pretty much, the left, pretty much rejected man. [00:32:00] Outright, in many ways. And, that's a whole other thing to be looked at. But, here we're, alright, we'll see you next, next time. Okay. Okay. We've got a question for you. Sure. Could you think of anyone who you might consider a kind of socially conscious singer songwriter now? Who would, we're talking about Dylan Pro, Chris: Protest Singer, or Yeah. Degan: Protest something. Protest Singer Dylan, Pete Segeer. Anyone who in whatever way, shape, or form is like actually. saying something about society. Has anyone come to mind for you? Waiter: no one who's no one who, like it's near the level of fame that those guys Yeah. Yeah. Like in the past you had like Rage Against the Machine you had, I dunno. there are definitely people, Chris: one of these is yours. Degan: I can't think of. Yeah. Is that the, Waiter: thank you. Yep. You got it. Okay, great. Thank you. Thank you. No problem. I'm gonna think about that. I can't think of anyone off the top of my head. Chris: Yeah. I thought about Rage Against the Machine, but they're actually like 20 years, like 20, 20, 30. Degan: I know exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting question. There's that, that, no, we were sitting like, who [00:33:00] is that person? Yeah. or group. And it's Wow. Like we've got so much happening in the world. Waiter: Inequality or no war, or, race. Maybe racism is Yeah. Like you could say yeah. Degan: Hiphop is gonna embrace that for sure. Yeah, totally. But I wonder in a short way, if. The left became so,obsessed in a really, in a generally a good way with kind of gender politics. So it's like it left the inequality piece and the economic inequality piece outta the equation. So it's so you're, what you have is remarkable female singers, bands, yeah. Coming and just, and actually just saying, my voice is important. That is the protest, right? Chris: That's the politics like, fuck you. Degan: Two, I'm gonna take up space. Yeah, Yeah. But then, but then what we're, so we're thinking is where's the stuff about we have a system that also needs to be challenged, right? Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Hey, maybe we answered it right now. That was very cool. Chris: I think we've solved it all. Degan: I think we've solved it all. Problem solved. Problem solved. Yeah. World. World is better. Waiter: Thanks guys. Chris: Thanks a lot. Degan: Thanks. Take [00:34:00] care. Outro and Contact --- Degan: Thank you for listening to What Kind of Man Are You? The podcast is hosted by Degan Davis and Chris Garbutt. Produced by Chris Garbutt and VQC Media. We would love your feedback. Check out the show notes for ways to get in touch with us. Leave a comment or email us at chris@vqcmedia.me. Contact Chris about advertising and sponsorship opportunities. 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