[00:00:00] Introduction --- Chris: Welcome to season two of What Kind of Man Are You? Degan: We are living in a moment where the ground is shifting under our feet. Politics, identity, even basic humanity, it all feels up for grabs. As men, we're asking, what's our role in all this? Chris: Time to tear up the old playbook. Do we step back or we finally reckon with what it means to be a man who actually gives a damn? Degan: This is What Kind of Man Are You? The podcast where we untangle masculinity, privilege, and the messy work of showing up. I'm Degan Davis, a therapist, writer, and author of the poetry collection. What Kind of Man Are You? Chris: And I am writer and producer, Chris Garbutt. Each episode we'll tackle the big questions. How do we be better allies? How do we confront fear, in the world and in ourselves? And what's our [00:01:00] responsibility when the stakes are this high? Degan: No easy answers. Just real talk about shame, courage, and the small acts that aren't so small, like standing up when it counts. Chris: So whether you're here to rethink masculinity, fight for justice, or just feel a little less alone in the chaos, let's get into it. Test, test, test, check, check, check. Check one, two. Degan: Hello, Chris Garbutt. Chris: Hello, Degan. Exploring Masculinity Through Movies --- Degan: It's good to be back with you on the second season of our, What Kind of Man Are You podcast, but this is what kind of man are you at the movies? Chris: Yes. And we have decided to take a look at masculinity issues, masculinity themes, et cetera, in movies. And [00:02:00] the reason we did that, from my perspective, was season one was kind of us exploring our own lives in a lot of ways, and exploring kind of big themes and, how our own lives connected to the world, and it got a little intense Degan: You know, some of my favourite moments, I think, were, yeah, when we really dug deep. Although I will say this, one of our listeners said something like there's a lot of therapy coming out of my mouth, you know, and, and and I, you know, that's a therapist. Yeah, I'm a therapist and that's okay. But this season we're going to be talking about movies and I'm not going to go the therapy route. You know it's always there. The idea of, you know, I think we're always. Movies, whatever we're, we're trying to reach toward the light. We're trying to be better human beings. At least we are, you know, you and I are. And so that's my, that's one of my goal. You know, my stance is this time is just to, yeah, is not [00:03:00] focus on transformation and healing in that way But just look at movies in the big picture and men in this era 2025. Chris: Yeah, so we're I mean for me I don't claim to be a movie critic and this won't be a movie criticism season. It will be like what struck us about movies we've gone to see and we're we're gonna mostly focus on current movies. At least that's the plan. Favourite Movie Scenes --- Degan: I got a quick question for you just as an intro, tell me a favourite scene or a scene that you love in any movie that sticks with you. Chris: Okay, well, I just said we were gonna do current movies and one of the most moving scenes in all of movies for me is On the Waterfront. Degan: Haven't seen it. Chris: You haven't seen On the Waterfront? Oh. Degan: Writing it down. Chris: As a man. Marlon Brando he's in the back and, you know, the famous line is [00:04:00] I could have been a contender. I could have been somebody, but the really moving part was where in that same scene, he confronts his brother about being the one who betrayed him. And just that moment, like they're sitting in the back and he's like, it was you and every time I think of that line where he just turns to him says it was you and the delivery of it is so, coming out of you know, tough guy Marlon Brando's mouth and he's a boxer and he's so vulnerable in that moment, and it gets me every single time. Wow. So that's where he, you know, and that's where then he goes on to, you know, I could have been somebody, but instead of a bum, which is what I am now. And so, you know, that's the first one that comes to mind. Degan: I was going to talk about another one, but I'm just wanting to say, and I know we're going to get to one movie. Diving into the Oz Universe --- Degan: We're going to get to Wicked, right. But you know, that makes me think when you talk about the tough guy and [00:05:00] the vulnerability. It makes me think of a beautiful film, I think it's called The Rider. Is that ringing any bells? Chris: Doesn't sound familiar, that doesn't mean I, it doesn't exist. Degan: Let me just sum it up really quickly. It's about I think it's, somewhere in the Midwest, United States, and it's about rodeo riders, and, you know, cowboys, and it's about a, a cowboy. two or three men in particular and what they're doing is so incredibly dangerous, to be to try and stay on the bulls as long as you can you know and and so they and the one of the cowboys has a terrible accident, you know, and so he's visiting him in hospital and you can I think they're they're young they're in their early 20s. And when they talk, you know, there's this sense of that even [00:06:00] though he risked his life and was in danger and I think has a back injury, neck injury, is really damaged from this. When they speak about the risks they took and they speak about how alive they were and yet there's the sort of vulnerability in there it's just a beautiful film Yeah, so there's not a moment in there I think some of the moments in the in the hospital are amazing, but I'll save my I'll save my one my one for another time. So wicked now, I'll just be I have seen the play I saw the musical with my daughter years ago like seven or eight years ago and I haven't read the book, but you, you're gonna, you're gonna convince me that I should see the movie or not. Chris: We've seen one movie together and we'll, we'll have a slightly different format when we do that. But if we haven't seen it together, we're gonna tell the other one whether we think they should see it or not. Wicked: A Must-See Movie --- Chris: And I'm going to say Wicked [00:07:00] is a must see. Degan: Okay. Chris: And so I'll give you a few reasons for it, but the first thing I'm going to talk about is we've kind of now we kind of have a Oz universe, but it's kind of in popular culture, like it's, it's a little bit disjointed. It's inconsistent. But it is, Degan: what do you mean an Oz universe? Chris: Like we all know like the Marvel cinematic universe and they have all these superheroes and they interact and the movies are all sort of fit in somehow with each other. Yeah. You kind of have that with Oz actually. So there's, there's the classic Wizard of Oz, the sort of pinnacle of all of that and still the great original one. There's Wicked, but there was also The Wiz sort of R and B version of the wizard of Oz. There [00:08:00] was a movie called return to Oz in the early eighties. And more recently there was a movie called Oz, The Great and Powerful, which is from the perspective of the wizard Getting, and how, it was sort of the wizard's origin story. Now, I will say, I took the time to watch Return, I've seen The Wiz already, which is not bad, but just kind of, that's kind of an alternate way of telling the Wizard of Oz story. So I, I might leave that one aside. But I did take the time on the weekend to watch the Great and Powerful Oz and the Return to Oz. Degan: You did your homework. Chris: I did my homework. I've also read the book Wicked, but I have not seen the musical theater version of it. So Degan: Together we make a whole. Chris: Yes. We basically, you know, [00:09:00] we are between the two of us, we're experts on this. So the, those two that I watched virtually unwatchable and the, so the great and powerful laws has, has James Franco. It has Mila Kunis. It has the amazing Michelle Williams who tries her best. It is an unwatchable movie. The CGI, like all those special effects look really fake. It's oversaturated, but not in a, not in a cool way. And just in a kind of like, it looks trashy kind of way. And the story is just not that interesting. Then you have the, the Return to Oz, which is a little more gritty. It's, almost, I would put it almost in, not quite a horror movie, not quite a thriller, but not for kids. Like kind of scary. [00:10:00] Yeah, a lot of, a sort of hall of mirrors type feel to it. So I just wanted to put those two out there because there is this world where Oz is reinterpreted or redone. And so Wicked has to be thought of in that context. Wicked, on the other hand for those who don't know, is the story of Elphaba the Wicked Witch of the West, Dorothy's nemesis in the original movie. And it focuses on essentially her origin story. And it's a musical just as the classic is a musical. And, as someone who is, you know, I like musicals, okay, but it's not my preferred genre. I would say that these two work very well together. Wicked as a musical and The Wizard of Oz as a musical, while, you know, very [00:11:00] much of their times, fit very well together. They're both musicals. They both use music so well within the, within the context of the, you know, a really bad musical, someone will just start singing for apparently no reason, but a really good musical will incorporate it really well. And I would say that both of those movies great songs and do it really well. The climactic scene... Degan: Yeah, this we're going to say here, we're going to have to give spoilers. Chris: There will be spoilers. Yes. I don't think we can tell these stories. I might or might not, there may or may not be spoilers in this one, but yeah, if you haven't seen it The, the strange thing though is this is part one. So that's the only annoying part.I don't think it needed to be two parts, Degan: But you've got me on the climactic scene. I cut you off, but what is the climactic scene? Chris: So the climactic scene of this movie, [00:12:00] I believe, I haven't seen the musical, but I believe it's actually the end of the first half of the musical. So what happens this is essentially she feels betrayed by everyone. Yeah. And she takes off on her broom and Degan: Elphaba Chris: Elphaba does. Yeah.So this is sort of the, the sketch of, of how it fits in, how, we need to think about it in terms of these other movies, but mainly in terms of the classic Wizard of Oz movie, because essentially what we're doing is taking a look at why was the Wicked Witch wicked? And this is the story of that. Now, this is a men's podcast, so I want to talk about why, why should you see it from a masculinity perspective? And I [00:13:00] think that, and even, even the awful James Franco movie, is interesting in this way because it really feels like this movie, this whole Oz universe, really, the men are like, there's, there are male central characters, but they are ineffectual and they are, they are either, frauds, like the wizard, they are what's what? I can't even remember the guy's name, the character's name, but the, the guy who becomes the boyfriend and the love interest, the love interest to Ariana Grande. Anyway, he, he is a goof. He's full of himself. He thinks he is more than he is. And in the end he's like [00:14:00] an airhead, right? He's, not very bright and he doesn't bring much to the table. So he's kind of a, what a scarecrow. Well, no, because the scarecrow you feel for. This guy is kind of he's more on the antagonistic side, right? Like everyone thinks he's great. He thinks he's great, but he's actually a bit of a buffoon, right? Degan: And just to say for a moment when I'm thinking about the Tin Man and the Scarecrow and the Lion, you really like, they're not, they're not they're, they're, they're all ineffectual, right? Until they, until they find that part in them, which has been, you know, overlooked by themselves. But you really care about them, right? Like, they're very sympathetic characters. Chris: I even, I even consider the wizard somewhat sympathetic. But I'll, I'll go back to the three friends, the Tin Man, the Scarecrow and the Lion. They're all broken men and each of them [00:15:00] lack something, you know, one is kind of he doesn't have a brain and he's kind of loosey goosey. And he, you know, he's a, he's a bit of a goof, but he, he just wishes he was, he doesn't have a brain. So he wishes he was smarter. The Tin Man I think is the most problematic because he's so sad, he clearly has a heart, you know? Degan: Right. He just needed oil, didn't he? Well, he needed oil to get off the end. Chris: That's true. But but you know, he, he's broken because he doesn't have a heart, so his, you know, you pound on his chest and it's empty. And then, you know, worst of all for a man the lion has no courage. And this is, these are sort of all sides of men that, that like, if only for that one thing, you know, there's a sense of how we we'd be perfect or whatever we would be fulfilled or [00:16:00] something like that. Andso I, I find that really interesting like the, the female characters you know, you think about Dorothy in the original movie, you know, she's young, so she's naive, but she is, she's very strong. Like, she gets scared by the witch and the wizard when he's, you know, all those explosions in the background. But she stands up to them, and, in the most frightening situations, she's, she's the one who's kind of got the, the nerve . Oh yeah, I remember seeing it as a kid and the flying monkeys taking her away and there's the hourglass that's counting down until, and when the last grain of sand falls, she'll die, right? It was pretty scary as a kid. And she was, terrified and brave. Hello, this is Chris interrupting because apparently my mic went dead when I was recording and so you can hear Degan speak and you can't [00:17:00] hear me speak for several minutes. So I'm just gonna go over what I said here. I'm re-recording as much as I can remember to give you the information that was there, and then we'll return to me and Degan when the recording was working well again. So anyway, we picked up with Dorothy being this really strong character and nothing terrified me more than what Dorothy was going through with the flying monkeys and the explosions behind the wizard. And that scene, as Degan mentioned about the, she was gonna die after the, the grains of sand went through the hourglass. Someone once asked me what the most scariest movie I'd ever seen was, and I will tell you it was The Wizard of Oz. Back to Wicked, it fits really well with this Wizard of Oz universe. You put these two together and you have Dorothy's experience, but then you also have the witch becoming the witch. I think this [00:18:00] idea this benefit to us men. We benefit from seeing strong characters, not just strong in the sense that they have strong wills. I wouldn't say that becauseAriana Grande's character, Glinda, the good witch is not that strong. Ariana Grande is fantastic in this movie. Both the lead actors are incredible but just in the sense of really well thought out characters. And in fact, you think this one is shallow and she's obsessed with how pretty she is and everything, but she does grow in this movie and Elphaba. She becomes well. Glinda becomes friends with Elphaba and it's really, it's nice to see, there's this lovely scene where Elphaba dances unusually and everyone's laughing at her. And Glinda comes to her and mimics her style of [00:19:00] dancing, and it's a cheesy scene, but it's lovely to see them bond over that and connect. And I actually, I'm shocked at when I really think about it, how rare it is to see. Really well drawn female characters in movies and television. Now look, there are movies that are made for women, and I would say Wicked is mainly aimed at women much like Barbie was the year before. But I think it's worth seeing on that level as a guy Seeing what entertainment is being aimed at women and the quality that's there because fabulous singing, fabulous dancing and the special effects are incredible in this. And I would say the climactic scene where there's all these falling beams and stuff and Elphaba is feeling like she's been betrayed and she starts singing Defying Gravity, which I gotta be honest, I didn't know anything about the musical until I saw that movie Watching that scene, watching her take to the sky and all this, it's a terrific movie. And I [00:20:00] was almost disappointed at the end when it said something about wait for part two. Political Allegories in Wicked --- Chris: Mentions this idea of politics and how politics is reflected in this. And I think that's a really important thing. The, this idea of, um, Oz being fearsome , and the musical itself was conceived post September 11th. And some thoughts came around axis of evil and all this sort of thing. And I, I think the original Wizard of Oz was considered a political allegory. And so yeah, they really, I think, chose interesting casting for the Wizard 'cause it's Jeff Goldblum and he comes across as, when you first meet him, of course there's this whole sort of big face in the air speaking with a very large voice. And then when he finds out,that it's Elphaba who he's always wanted to meet. [00:21:00] He says, oh, I didn't know it's you. And it's out comes Jeff Goldblum, who is playing Jeff Goldblum . He's very affable. Maybe a little absent-minded. And, anyway, there's this whole thing around how they're actually, he seems like a very friendly, fellow friendly, affable guy, but you learn later that they're trying to get rid of all the talking animals. And one of the, one of the professors, a lot of the professors are actually animals and they talk, they're very integrated in society. And one of Elphaba favourite professors is animal and. There's this whole kind of movement to get rid of them. In the end. It's really, there's a lot of when I think about it coming just after 9-11 as a stage musical, perhaps the metaphor was the treatment of Muslims and other brown people generally. And now it's more of a [00:22:00] broader Trumpian sweep of immigrants, and you've got this sense of real Americans and everybody else. There's this worry around TikTok and the algorithm shifting to deprioritize or not showcase critical videos of the American administration and its changes and it's like language is being affected in that way. And I saw a really interesting piece that a lot of TikTok video creators are using the first couple of slides to talk about fashion boots or something else. But then they're holding up signs that say we support those who are being affected by ICE. Or there's, they're saying something about Palestine because it's. It's like a stutter. I'm not gonna speak here, but I am gonna show support for a certain point of view. It's very, yes, very political movie. Very much on a micro level, [00:23:00] the whole idea of difference. Because obviously Elphaba is green and nobody talks to her. They think she's weird. And so there's all of this, all of that on a micro level. How hard it is to feel different and feel ostracized left aside or seen as the weirdo in the group or whatever. But yeah, it goes bigger than that, and it's absolutely an allegory for America. This whole idea of the sparkling shining city on a hill, it's Ronald Reagan. With the darkness underneath and sinister activity happening. Very much. I think in the same ways the flying monkeys are all over the all over the country. Mentioned Russian drones in the Ukraine. I think you could argue that law enforcement, mass law enforcement, has that feel as well. Very terrifying. So anyway, I hope that this helped convince Degan to see the [00:24:00] movie, although he has seen the musical. So I'll give him a pass if he doesn't go. Felt like the performance was solid all the way. Got a little draggy in the middle. Probably could have been, one movie didn't have to be two. Men's Roles in the Oz Universe --- Chris: I think that the really important thing is this idea of men being seen as, the secondary characters in almost all of the movie and the different roles they played being either goofy or uh, in other ways, ineffectual, even the wizard who is not what he seems he's a fraud, but he's also, he can't really get rid of the animals without the help of another character, a female character. So I. I wanted to add in hope I didn't go on too long, but I also didn't wanna lose out on all that stuff that I [00:25:00] said. Back to your regularly scheduled programming. Hello again, Degan. Hey Chris, how are you doing? I'm good. We have another movie this time, one you've watched, and you're gonna tell me whether I should see it or not. Degan's Favorite Movie Scenes --- Chris: But maybe you should tell me one of your favourite scenes from movie. Degan: Okay. I'm gonna, I'm gonna cheat and do two, but one's gonna be very quick. Okay. One of, we talk about men and masculinity and all that stuff, and you know the scene in Star Wars. The original Star Wars when Obiwan and Vader are fighting and they're, the rest of them are trying to get back to the Millennium Falcon and Luke calls out o Obiwan or something like that. Yeah. And I. Obiwan puts his light paper down and is, killed or disappeared by Vader. And then he, he disappears and he and his cloak falls and Vader puts his foot on it. I think about that because, [00:26:00] so many of the movies are lasers and blasters and and it's fine. It's crazy. And there was something about that in the. In the midst of him. And then he has the line that I used to memorize that whole movie when I was a kid talking about movies, right? We're talking about movies here. Iconic Movie Scenes: Star Wars and Magnolia --- Degan: And he says, if you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine. And there's something about, this scene of saying, if you use this force. If you let go to your anger, you know that I'll become more powerful than you, and I thought in the midst of a movie that could have been like so many, just cool lasers, amazing effects. There was there, there was a story there. And I think that's why it captured partially why it captured the imagination of a lot of people. The other one really quickly is from Magnolia. Okay. And in brief, Tom Cruise is playing a kind of, like one of those guys on a, in a YouTube channel that tells you how to pick up [00:27:00] women, that sort of character and, and you like, you gotta be in control, you gotta be an asshole. And he's being interviewed by this woman who knows, he has a whole other side to him. And she is asking questions and saying, I know you really loved your mother. You took care of her. And he begins to, you can almost see the face he's crafted for the world and the face that's underneath. In one moment that, and that, that face's crafted kind of melts, and then he's trying to put it back on. It's just a brilliant piece of acting. Yeah. So those scenes have stayed with me. Chris: Yeah. I love that movie. And I think that's Tom Cruise's best, best moments. Absolutely. That, in that, in the scene where he's, is it his father's dying where he is sitting beside his Oh, yes. At the, in, in a hospital. Yeah. Yes. Those two scenes are like [00:28:00] just the pinnacle of Tom Cruise's career, as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. Just not the biggest fan, but he actually really brought it, that movie. Degan: Just to say, and this is a little outside of movies, I just finished my Masters of Fine Arts in creative nonfiction and fiction, and I had to do a lecture. And anyway, long story short I did the lecture On what, how we can borrow forms from one an art form and use it in another, but one of the things I ended up saying was reflecting on the books that I have carried from apartment to apartment, like from the time I've known you, like the ones that I couldn't live without, and it's interesting to think about scenes from movies or movies themselves that we keep coming back to and say, what is it about them? What is it what is it? Is it telling us there's something that we still are working out in our own lives? Or are we just so captivated by, what is it? Chris: Yeah. That's a really good point. Like, there are things that [00:29:00] strike me in movies that other people didn't even notice. And vice versa, where people, even famous lines where it's like I didn't think it was that good, but it's because it, it resonates with something in you and Yeah. And yeah, we should, maybe we'll keep doing, maybe we'll keep talking about scenes. Yeah. That struck us like this. Degan: Because they glow in your imagination and they glow more than Yeah. And it's hard to know why. The Brutalist: A Deep Dive into the Film --- Degan: I'm gonna talk about The Brutalist. Chris: Oh yeah. I I wanna see this one, but you tell me whether it's worth my time. Yeah, and you do need quite a bit of it. Degan: It's wi with the intermission. Chris: I hate this about movies. There's so many, there's so many that are too long. Anyway, go on. Degan: This was, yeah, this was like one of the first I've been to, and I don't know how long I did see a Joan of Arc that, that had about, it was seven hours. It was absurd. I think it had two intermissions. Chris: Oh my God. Degan: Yeah. Anyway this one has one. It's The Brutalist, it's directed by Brady Corbett and stars Adrian [00:30:00] Brody. And it's basically a story of a very talented architect from I think Hungary, although there's some talk about where he grew up in terms of borders in, anyway, 1947, he comes to New York on a ship as so many did, after the fall of the Third Reich. AndI know we're talking about men and masculinity and that, so that's gonna be in there. But I'll just say something about the movie itself. 'cause I am trying to convince you to see it, yeah. And I gotta work hard because it's long. There's, the opening scenes are really striking in that, this main character is Laszlo Toth, and he's on the ship with so many coming from Europe and they're just coming up to Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty. And there's a lot of kind of frenetic camera work and blackened moments as these, men and women with their [00:31:00] kids are moving through the ship and trying to get a view. Through a porthole or through a, just a little crack in the wherever, up on the deck or just below deck. And when they finally come close to Ellis Island and the Statue of Liberty the camera shot shows the Statue of Liberty upside down because they're so close to their kind of looking up. Oh. So you'll see this kind of inversion of the, of America, of the American dream, which is like the big story here. Yeah. That's cool. It's cool, it's beautiful. And just to say a couple of the things that, that, it's interesting how movies have their own. Like they teach us how to watch them in a way. So at the very beginning, you've got a letter from his wife who is still in Europe, and they and she, there's a voiceover of this letter being written to him, which I think arrives a few weeks after or so after he, he lands. But that letter is being read as he's frantically trying to [00:32:00] get off, on and off the ship. To see these first glimpses of America to begin this life there and that. That pairing of a letter or a voiceover of two quite different scenes repeats over and over again. And I just thought it was interesting thinking about how the form of movies work. And at the beginning it was very jarring. And I think there were so many ways the director played with, confusion or un an unsettled feeling. So you certainly had that there. You had it with the camera work with the upside down Statue of Liberty, and then the jostling and the pushing. And through a good deal of the movie, particularly for the first like hour and a half, which is, not even halfway through, there's this constant instability. And I kept thinking, that you feel it through the music, through this kind of minor tones of the music. You feel it through the [00:33:00] sometimes shaky camera work. And I think it's like the entire perspective of the movie is this man coming from Europe who's had, awful things happen without, his wife has hardly a penny to his name and every moment is, you don't know what's gonna happen at any moment. And that's certainly the feeling I had as a viewer. So it was like, that perception is through this Laszlo Toth's mind. Themes of Masculinity and Art in The Brutalist --- Degan: And to think a little bit about the masculinity part. There's a moment. And again, I'm sorry, we give spoilers here. We're talking about the movies. I'll try and leave out perhaps maybe the biggest pieces but we're gonna talk about plot, right? And this, there's a moment where after he's landed and maybe, I don't know, it's, he meets a friend, a familiar face, someone he knew from Europe, and it was just, it's such tenderness and the hug there. I hug you when I see you, tonight I see you getting outta your car. It's great to see you. And what would it be like [00:34:00] if we were separated by a war and by destruction that we could hardly imagine? And then we see each other after that. It's, and there was that in the movie. It was absolutely beautiful. Wow. Yeah, it just like this hugging this sense of almost like I'm alive again. And it just beautiful. And there's a scene just, maybe 10 minutes later or in the film, a few weeks later where there's, where he gets news that his wife is still alive and his niece is alive. And there you see you see just the tears and him kissing this man on the cheeks and them hugging and then on the mouth just, they're just like this, awash in celebration and relief that the family has made it, it is still alive. Chris: So this is two years after the war. Degan: It's 1947. He comes, yeah. Chris: So he still does two years after the war. He doesn't know that his wife is still alive. Degan: No. Chris: Wow. Degan: [00:35:00] No. Because he hasn't, that letter that we had at the voiceover, and again, I think this is the dislocation of the film. We know it, but he hasn't received it yet. Wow. So that, I think that's the letter that ends up coming. Yeah, there's so much of it is not confusing in this 'cause you know what's happening but unsettling, just to continue on with the story, he basically is trying to make his way. He's a brilliant architect. He studied the Bauhaus school. He's and he's very good. But of course he's coming here with nothing and the majority of the movie is his relationship to a man named Harrison and this Harrison's son and their family who are extremely wealthy and he ends up, well, just to add a couple of pieces here the score feels really important here [00:36:00] and this must have been conscious, this movement between the music itself, but also the very physical environment of the work sites that he has to work on before he's able to become an architect or work in that field. So you get the kind of pounding of metal. At some point you get the digging of shovels. You get, and then this sort of ominous minor key stuff happening. And there's a beautiful moment where he's working this, just like a construction site. Then he's on a bridge and he's working with a Black construction worker who he's gonna befriend throughout the movie. And at one moment there's a radio playing, I forget what song, and his friend just starts singing it. And there's just in the midst of this drudgery, on this bridge there's just this singing. And then he grabs the main character Adrie, the Adrian Brody character, and just does this dance, right? And they're laughing with cigarettes in their mouths. And you get this [00:37:00] feeling of these beautiful moments in the midst of kind of hell, or at least massive uncertainty. And there's, that really keeps the movie afloat. So you've got these clashes of, of capitalism and artistry because, he's this brilliant architect. So the main piece of the movie is he gets taken under the wing by this man Harrison, who's extremely wealthy and his family. Oh, and the, talking here about men and masculinity you really get the feeling of the incredible men are so dominant in this period that they particularly those in this family, the way they're presented, there's the entitlement is so profound that it's almost as if they're they don't, this family doesn't need to be aware of the other. Or they're so far removed. They're complete in their sense of [00:38:00] comfort and safety that, that it's, everything is a game. So much is a game and this is this one family, and when, later when Laszlo's wife comes, Laszlo is creating this remarkable architectural wonder on top of a hill, which is gonna be both like a chapel and a gymnasium and a library, and it's done in this, well, brutalist style, right? But, it's got this remarkable architectural piece where when the sun rises and sets the shadows somehow come to make a natural cross in through, in light because, they're, they want it to to honour, a church in some ways. So anyway, there's all this happening. But at one moment, Laszlo's wife looks at him and says, don't you realize for them this is just a kitchen renovation? Like he's putting his soul into this and his, his ability and so you always have the sense that this [00:39:00] man, who represents, art so powerfully is really at the mercy, absolutely at the mercy of this family. So you've got these crosscurrents happening. Chris: It's the whole sort of patron relationship, where, the, throughout the centuries, artists have often needed to work for patrons and yeah. That relationship is like fraught to say the least, because on the one hand, yeah, your job is to inflate the ego of your patron, and on the other hand, you're an artist and you just want to do great stuff. Degan: It's really, if you think back like classical music, like Chris: Yeah I think about Bach for example. Degan: Yeah, B Brahms, they. They, these were commissions. The Brandenburg Concertos by Bach, it was, is Brahms would do this in his summers. Okay, this is how I make my living. And there, so we've got, yeah. It's like when you look [00:40:00] around now at beautiful architecture and think, it came out of this wealth, incredible wealth. Yeah. And. And it's funny when you see what was a beautiful building and now it's like an A&W or a Starbucks or something and they've just moved in, so any so I'm gonna try and sell you, lemme try and sell you on this now. Yeah. I don't know how I'm doing so far. Chris: I need more information. Degan: Yeah. Chris: Is it, is this supposed to be based on a true story or is this fiction? Degan: No, it's total fiction. Chris: Oh, okay. So what, like when does his wife join him then? Degan: His wife joins him within five years, right? Chris: So this when we're talking about the getting excited about making this building how far in are we? Degan: Yeah. The bulk of the movie is this relationship with this family and and the kind of erratic nature of the father, the patriarch who, is stickly, [00:41:00] sentimental, and to Laszlo, and, oh I love the conversations we have the intellectual conversations we have, and you can see this man who is. Incredibly thoughtful, just having to just nod and agree. Chris: And manage this kind of ego, but these these kind of flacid intellectually empty comments, that kind of thing. Okay, here's a question as a man, what is going on with Laszlo in this context ? Degan: I think, yeah, I think that's a really interesting question because when he begins to feel more comfortable when, as this structure is being built on this hillside, and then they're spending an enormous amount of money. And in a way this Harrison character is quite, is very taken, sees the beauty of this, and then Laszlo Toth comes. More as a little bit more confident comes into who he is, he can express [00:42:00] himself a little more clearly. And he's, like a lot of kind of tortured artists, incredibly perfectionist. Deeply, like completely committed to his vision, will give his own money and wages to be able to get extra materials or get the ceilings to be higher in the place that he imagined this sort of thing. So in terms of what kind of man, you in the way that we talked about the face melting in Magnolia of Tom Cruise. You can see the faces he has to put on, and as they begin to slip off in his original and, and there he's flexing muscles, in a way and allowing his personality to be. But of course the danger is that at any moment he's cut. At any moment, he's cut off from money from the patronage and the rest of it. And then you have a scene of absolutely devastating control by Harrison, which I'll just leave to the viewer. And so in that way [00:43:00] there this, his reduction. And I think that's, I think if you think about it, like we, we talk about men, right? We're talking about men and masculinity in this way. We've been socialized so profoundly to be certain ways. Yep. And I think what art can do in this way is just show this remarkable vastness of who we can be as human beings. So here you have this man who's really under such duress and the movie, as I said earlier, the movie keeps us in that unsettled sense, which I think is really his heart, his spirit, the way he's perceiving the world There, there is buoyancy, right? The very last, it's in three acts and the last act is a kind of retrospective. So he's been recognized even though he's not a real person, you really feel like you're watching a biography of someone and you. And I looked up I looked up his name and what came up was something that said, you're probably Googling to see if he's a real person. And it was like so [00:44:00] many people had done it because it feels so, so real. So I would say if you're, on a simple note, if you are going to want to see it, it's, it is a brilliant look at the American dream and how the other, how the, immigrant population is seen. Power dynamics, yeah it's beautifully shot. Like a couple of times I was so caught into the story, but a few times I just was just starting to watch the shadows, watch the the re-creation of 1960s, 1970s or really fifties and sixties America. And it's just, you're just enveloped in this world. And just to say on that note that the project, the building he creates just it's set up so these doors, which look like they're made of concrete or these kind of wall segments all open at the same time. And there's water on the bottom, 'cause at one point the site gets left after [00:45:00] a train accident where one of the workers or something happens to delay it. So for years it's just sitting. And you see these rain puddles and these beautiful kind of obelisk like structures and high ceilings. And okay, I'm gonna give it away. Here's where you in the end I'll try and give it away, but to entice you in. But leave a little piece. In the last scene his niece speaks for him because I think he's unable to speak. He's in a wheelchair and she talks about how the construction, how the vision came to him and what he was trying to say, which really brings the movie back to Europe and to his wife. You get the sense that his drive was to make something permanent, right? To make something beautiful and was very much honouring what he had gone through. So yeah, I would say brings snacks because it's long and and go and see it. [00:46:00] Okay. Final Thoughts and Ratings --- Degan: I was wanting to see it anyway, you just pushed me over the edge. What's your rating? I'm gonna say like 9.5. Chris: Wow. Degan: Yeah. Really high. Chris: This was a great movie Degan: Because it was, it, I remember someone saying this was, barry Callahan. Oh, yes. Remember Barry Callahan? Chris: Yeah. Writer and publisher of exile. Degan: Exile. Yes. Very, and exile publishers. They do, their poetry and fiction. He once said something like, it's important to judge a work of art by what it sets out to do. Yes. So what are you trying to do, and I think attempting to tell this particular story that way. It was absolutely remarkable. Chris: I once read a critic who was retiring and he said, the three questions a critic has to answer is, what is it trying to do? What does it actually do and does it matter? [00:47:00] Wow. And that really stuck with me because, a critic shouldn't be a consumer advocate saying, this is a good movie. You should see it. We just like we're doing, but Degan: Our soulless conversation on this Sunday night. Chris: But but but that like why is it important? Understand it on its own context. In its own context, and then figure out how it fits into the world. Yeah, and I think that's a really, that's a really interesting way to look at it. Degan: Yeah. Stay with us because we're gonna keep talking about this yeah. About movies and men and the universe, and we'll try and be soulful sometimes too. Outro and Contact --- Chris: Thank you for listening to What Kind of Man Are You? The podcast is hosted by Degan Davis and Chris Garbutt. Produced by Chris Garbutt and VQC Media. We would love your feedback. Check out the show notes for ways to get in touch with us. Leave a comment or email us at [00:48:00] chris@vqcmedia.me. Contact Chris about advertising and sponsorship opportunities. If you like what you hear, tell your friends, and please give us a thumbs up or a five-star rating on your favourite platform.