[00:00:00] Degan: Chris: Welcome to season two of What Kind of Man Are You? Degan: We are living in a moment where the ground is shifting under our feet. Politics, identity, even basic humanity, it all feels up for grabs. As men, we're asking, what's our role in all this? Chris: Time to tear up the old playbook. Do we step back or we finally reckon with what it means to be a man who actually gives a damn? Degan: This is What Kind of Man Are You? The podcast where we untangle masculinity, privilege, and the messy work of showing up. I'm Degan Davis, a therapist, writer, and author of the Poetry Collection. What Kind of Man Are You? Chris: And I am writer and producer, Chris Garbutt. Each episode we'll tackle the big questions. How do we be better [00:01:00] allies? How do we confront fear, in the world and in ourselves? And what's our responsibility when the stakes are this high? Degan: No easy answers. Just real talk about shame, courage, and the small acts that aren't so small, like standing up when it counts. Chris: So whether you're here to rethink masculinity, fight for justice, or just feel a little less alone in the chaos, let's get into it. So we're here in the reference library to talk about the state of the world and masculinity and men, what we can do. Degan has heard through my many texts to him and my many emails. We've talked a lot about how we're going to do season two. And season one; the world was a very different place. And, with the rapid changes in the world, [00:02:00] we've been struggling with what season two should look like. Degan: Even right now, we're sitting in the reference library and above us is a large sign that says Ignite Books. Sorry. Ignite Minds. Not books. Chris: Not books. Degan: Not books. Which would literally have not been there three months ago. Maybe it was, but it certainly seems like a reaction. Chris: The whole idea of, of banning and burning books feels so it's so present now and yet it seems of another time to me. And here we are. We did our season one of this podcast about. Different aspects of masculinity and even touched on world events for sure. But what is, what is it? What kind of man do we wanna be? What kind of man are you in this new world? Degan: That's a actually really good question, and one of the things I've just been turning over is you talked in the emails about I want to do [00:03:00] things big and small, and I think I've been focused, I always want to do big, dramatic gestures because I, that's the way I am. I'm dramatic guy. But I actually think that the small gesture is actually not small. And I'm thinking about who is most affected right now by what we're doing. By what's happening, not what we're doing by what's happening in the United States and that like that piece around who can we support and in what ways? That feels really big because like the chill that's coming from the United States around L-G-B-T-Q Trans speaking out and defense of Palestine and just voicing outrage, all of that is just absolutely, it's, it is seeping its way through. And it's just beginning, right? So I think this might be part of, one of the things. We may have to be, and this is general and we're [00:04:00] still talking about how we can respond as men and as people, but we, I think we're gonna have to be very agile because things change literally as we know every 10 minutes literally every 10 minutes. And it's then what is the stance? What is the way to even to not to be shielded from that roaring sea? Do you know what I mean? Chris: Say more. Degan: By that there's a lot of people that are like, I'm not going on social media for a long time. Or I'm gonna take huge holidays from it in the way that if you can have if you think of the metaphor of this sea, like the top is, is being blown by a storm, but the bottom underneath is calm. It's like, how, like that's a place to begin to say. How am I gonna find calm? Like how do you find calm in the midst of this? How have you had, where have your moments of calm been? Where you actually feel like a human being and a man and a person. Chris: There's a few things that I try to do because [00:05:00] you do, I think more than ever we need to be engaged, but because more than ever the news, the world, everything just seems so frightening. So ever changing exhausting possibly impossible. Impossible. Like you also need not to be too cliched about it, but you need self care. You need to take care of yourself. And I. What, what do I do? The usual things are still the things that work for me, comedy. Yeah. Degan: God bless comedy. Chris: Yeah. Even if it's even if it's relevant, being able to laugh in the face of all of this is helpful. Yeah. You and I were talking about the Daily Show. I'm a big fan of it is social media, but I'm a big fan of TikTok and sometimes there's some really funny videos that I watch or, going on YouTube, but also [00:06:00] music, I know how important music is to both of us and and how much we we, I think it's funny because you and I do those nights. Sometimes we call 'em YouTube nights where we pull up a video of a song and then the next person thinks of another song and we just go back and forth and we have so much fun. There have been many times where I've thought how much I miss that. 'cause you haven't done it in a while, but I've done it for myself. Just because I've wanted to feel nourished that way. Degan: Yeah. Chris: And I think in some ways rest is essential to whatever the project of working to make the world better. Degan: Yeah. Yes. No, you're totally right. You're totally right. I think a couple things I've been doing, I've been I love, I write and so that in a way takes me into a different world and away from this one, which I think is really good. And it also is a [00:07:00] commitment to as I remember someone, I forget who it was in the Oscars, they were like I think it was one of the indie films that had won. But one of the either producers or writers was saying like, tell the stories that move you. And I, that line really resonated with me. And I think there's something about engaging in art in some way. And the idea that artists like seek to I think the word truth is can be problematic, right? Whose truth and all that kind of stuff, but seek to like, reflect back what you see right in a way that is human and is, has its drama and has its beauty and its thought and it's that does feel calming to be, whether you're creating art in itself, like whether it's about this time or not. And actually, my friend, a friend was just saying recently that there was a man who he was one of the judges I think who was overseeing like the war crime or war crimes, tribunal and Kosovo. Okay. After the Civil War and that on break because. The the trauma and the atrocities were so intense. He would go to a [00:08:00] local museum like Art Gallery and was looking at pictures of or Vermeer. And there was, and that just taking in these paintings, these paintings of Vermeer that were so much beauty, so much detail of human is so much just like a sense of what it is to be human and to be moved by someone's perceptions where actually, she was saying also just in the idea of the importance of art in this way, creating it or taking it in. There was this, she mentioned that when Monet was painting the water lilies, it was. After World War I and the greatest carnage the world had ever seen on the battlefields. And so his turn was toward painting these absolutely beautiful, serene, gorgeous, rippling scenes. And so anyway, I think I've just been engaging in art, trying to create my own stories and take it in as and remembering [00:09:00] that art will always be here when you know these absolutely atrocious oligarchs will will be gone, Chris: True. And I want to second that and also say, yeah, I think if finding creativity you and I are both writers you are a musician. Like anything you can do with your creative self. Is a, it's medicine, right? Because you can find there's always beauty inside of yourself. That you can find. And so it doesn't even have to be, it could be cooking, it could be, Crochet, yeah. And of course, and anytime you can go for a walk orphysical activity. Degan: Yeah. Chris: Play sports or whatever. I think there's value in all of that. Degan: Yeah. In a way get, yeah. Yeah. Getting away in a way from the world so you can come back to it with energy, yeah. [00:10:00] And then there's this other piece of what we can actually do. In the email you sent it was, what can we actually do here? Big or small. And I and I don't, I think one thing I wanna say is I don't have the answer except that I want, I think we're probably have to be agile and see who is most deeply affected around us. We talk about community, we can, we need community for ourselves. When I think about those who identify those who are trans or L-G-B-T-Q or we were talking about this earlier, those who are protesting Israel's actions and the world's actions against the Palestinians. These kinds of we don't know how this will, how this will impact Canada. So anyway, to me, I think I, it's like I have some energy and I want to put it somewhere, and I think because of the kind of shock and awe and the velocity of all these assaults. From the United States that it's taking a bit of time just to find my feet and I think we're all in that. And maybe [00:11:00] just now historically, we are beginning to find our feet a little bit, realizing what's happening, Chris: Now, would you say there are any sort of individual actions you have taken yet? Have you participated in. In boycotting American goods or anything like that? Degan: Yeah, absolutely. So I was planning to go to the States with my, with a friend actually a couple in a couple weeks from now. And we cancelled that trip. And I have Amazon has been problematic for a while, but I deleted that account. I now just found out that Airbnb, the owner is is supporting Musk in the DOGE and, so I am going to, I haven't been using it recently anyway, but I'm going to boycott it and in fact, delete my account. So those are little actions, but they're still important. But, the one big piece that I feel very honoured about is that I was just with a number of Americans last week at a writing retreat here in Canada. And one of them is having [00:12:00] top surgery in the next two weeks actually. And they asked if I would participate in a ritual. There happened to be a river in front of the place that we were at, and they asked me to, to engage in a ceremony with them because, and so we worked out the language and they asked, can I, would you help me with a reverse baptism? Because they came from a religious background but they said the, the amount of shame that is. Put onto a trans body is so great that I want to wash that away. So we turned that ritual and this person, I they went down and I pulled them out of the freezing Cold River 'cause it was still icy. It was just three, two feet deep, but still, they went right down, right above their to their neck about, and I said words to the effect of, You are washing away the shame that much of the world puts on a trans body and [00:13:00] are coming out of the river as your true self and your true body. And and I know, and it was, I was so honoured to be asked to do that, but that person said, that made a real difference, right? And even the, when the surgery occurs, which is gonna be in the next two weeks, I'm gonna light a candle from here. All of us writers who supported this. Person are gonna do the same and in a very practical way, that's the ritual as aspect, which I think is, and I love taking ritual from a religious tradition and turning it, I think into much more positive modernizing. Yeah. But also there's also the very practical of just checking in by phone, right? If you think, I feel very honoured to have been asked if you think about what's happening to those right now. Trans people have been literally used as ammunition in Trump's war against "wokeism". And and he doesn't care. I don't think about really about this issue, but it. Absolutely ignites the base, the right wing base, and it makes some people feel uncomfortable, which is fair, [00:14:00] but it just be, but he's using it as a weapon. He did use it as a weapon. So to me, the fear that I'm seeing from these communities when I speak with people in the United States, in what ways then? Internet phones, zoom calls, transcend borders. How can we be in support of people who are literally terrified and community, like we feel like we want community, you and I, because we're feeling the effects of what's happening in the United States with our threats to sovereignty and the rest of it. And these people are afraid to walk down the street sometimes and be who they are. And and. I don't have the answer exactly as to how to support except keep. Even if we keep our eyes on that idea and say, there are people in need let's help them, let's be there. Chris: Yeah. And maybe we can say unequivocally here for the record, support trans rights. Support your trans friends. Support support [00:15:00] non-gender conforming People that you know and, everybody's, all bodies matter, right? Yeah. We're all entitled to our, to to live in the body that we belong in. Degan: Yes. Chris: And yeah. And a lot of us are lucky enough to be happy with the body that we have. Yeah. And let's put that as a value Absolutely. In our lives. Yeah. So that I know. I know I will make mistakes. Degan: It's not about getting it right, it's just about getting it right. The intent of saying your. Identification and your not just identification. We harp on that a lot. It's really your being Chris: Yeah. Your existence, your reality, your existence. Degan: That's the piece that you know that we need to affirm. Absolutely. Yeah. This is a show about masculinity and just the other day I was talking to a friend who, you know. Is gonna be speaking to a man, she's female. She's going in to make a complaint. It's, I don't wanna talk about the detail, but it's a [00:16:00] situation where the man has a power, is has a, is in a position of power and there still are a, there's still. She asked me, Degan, do you, if you feel this way, would you also mind emailing this person? And I had already thought about doing it. It was, it's a school related matter about, about something But the piece is, this person whose strong, articulate, clear also felt this sort of old school sense of a lot of men do sit in positions of power still. They still have a kind of almost like a sort of inherited. Historical sense of rightness in many ways, even if they're good people And she was saying, can you also email this person? So I feel supported in this moment. And it's and I did it because I agree and I was already thinking about it around this particular issue, but. But that's another way of being an ally and a support. There's a lot of little places, and I think in that way, I don't wanna be too simplistic about this, but [00:17:00] men do occupy still positions sometimes covertly or overtly positions of power or kind of privilege, assumed power. Do you know what I mean? That there are voices. And one example, I think we talked about this last season was that, in studies around in classrooms, a lot of teachers, male or female, give more space to male students. We're all caught in this, right? Chris: How do we both use the privilege that we have to lift others? But also. The assumed privilege that we have, when do we step back? There's a time to step up and there's a time to step back. Yeah. And knowing the difference is actually challenging. Degan: When you talk about knowing when to step up, when to step back, you know I, we were talking about this just a little while ago. I and I don't, again, I don't know the answer to this, but I do feel that. A critique of the left and how the left has been in the [00:18:00] last 10 years is really important also. And part of that critique that I'm feeling has been this sense of frozenness that I didn't know which way to act in any direction sometimes. And, historically I can understand that, right? There's there there's been a great raising of voices around male privilege and white privilege and the rest of it, which is absolutely legitimate. And one of the pieces that I think didn't help the left was the frigid nature of communication throughout that. Chris: How do you mean? Degan: I mean that exactly what, if we go back to what you said, I mean that people aren't gonna get it right all the time and that, I think there needs to be just the very basic human concept of forgiveness for fucking up right? And excuse my language and that needs to be seen with. Some generosity and that sometimes the tone, I understand anger, absolutely righteous anger and I'm not critiquing that. But what I do want to see is that we, there needs to be room to make mistakes. And [00:19:00] I think if anything coming forward, that, to me, the kind of leftist stance I want to take and the community I want to be part of is one where that sense of forgiveness and generosity exists with, without a sense of the possibility of being canceled or thrown out or shamed for trying. There's a really good reason to be shamed for actions that are damaging, that are shame, absolute. That are shameful. Sure. But yeah. And that's. I think if we're gonna be talking about the second season, that is a piece I'd like to look at because I think it allows people, I think it allows people to be able to come out of a kind of slightly frozen, this is my language, I don't know how you feel about it, but a kind of frozen place of I want to do something. I'm not sure if I'm gonna get it right. I think maybe I don't have a place here and I wanna say I disagree with all of that. Men absolutely have a place, they have a place to stand in the places what we, that we've been just talking about, to stand as allies. And and we don't have to get it right every time. Chris: What is right and what is [00:20:00] wrong? When I really step back from myself, when I step back from, take a break from the world, what matters is what I ask myself and my politics come out of that rather than thinking, oh, I am left or right, or whatever. I can remember times when I could have friends who I disagreed with politically and it's harder to do that now. Degan: Yeah. It's true. It's really true. Chris: And I'm, and I don't think that you have to go out and seek friendships with people who believe the opposite of what you believe. But we also need to thaw to, to use your, to continue your metaphor, some of that frozenness that we have. 'cause it leads to us not thinking about who is being harmed and who is, who needs help, but rather than, what's the right way to think about this? [00:21:00] And so to me, the right way to think about it is who is being harmed? Who needs help? Who and what harm are we ourselves? Suffering that maybe we don't acknowledge that we need to understand as well. Degan: By you mean the harm, by not communicating simply with others that don't have our same views. Chris: There's that. And also just our own, the, as you know well male privilege and patriarchy are real. That also damages men in a lot of ways. Oh, yeah. We've talked about that in season. Absolutely. Yeah. So what are our internalized assumptions that keep us from being fully who we could be Yeah. In the world? And I think all of that needs to be examined and your politics coming out of that rather than taking what side you're on. 'cause I feel like politics more and more has become, I'm pro-Trump, I'm [00:22:00] pro Kamala, I'm pro right. Carney, I'm pro Pierre. Yeah. And really. Your choices in politics come from real values rather than what side you're on and who's gonna win kind of thing. Degan: Yeah. There's still something very like tribal about politics that I think always has been there. When we yeah. Chris: It's not a hockey game though, right? Degan: It is. And it isn't in the sense of there becomes a leader, there becomes someone you put certain aspirations in. Chris: True. Degan: Possibly. And the reality is now we have a literal enemy who, you know, who is threatening the sovereignty of this country. And so we have actually a hockey game. Who is gonna, who's, who are we gonna, who are we gonna elect to, to meet the face off, which is hilarious. 'cause it hasn't been so stark. I agree absolutely all the time about going inward, finding out who you are, what are your values, what are things that you've, been taught that, that I don't know, that you need to look at and ways of being and all the rest of it. Absolutely. Chris: Yeah, and the [00:23:00] reason I am saying, what I'm saying is that there will come a time when you have to take a stand and say what side you're on. Degan: Oh yeah. Chris: And, but you need to know yourself as well as possible to be ready for that moment and that Degan: Well make that decision clearly. Yeah, I think it is here. I think it here. Yeah, we're here. No we're here. I, no, I agree. I agree. And this leads to another conversation that maybe we return to, which we were talking about around the left, because there, there are a lot. And lots of pieces here. And you know what, it's, talking about masculinity and being a man and the rest of it, I myself have never felt this country threatened before. I've just, in my lifetime, of course we have sent peacekeepers into the world. We did not join the Iraq war, but we did have troops in Kosovo. We have troops active. Yeah. Afghanistan in the world. Afghanistan. Afghanistan, of course. But to be honest, it's always been like a part that I've never connected to. I've never really connected to the Canadian military as a presence. And I think [00:24:00] in the sense that we were talking about earlier, that the United States has often just acted as a kind of protector the way, whether we think about it or not. And it's bringing out a part of me. I like to think maybe this is another interesting part for this second season, the fullness of being a man or of masculine energy. Forget about just being a man of masculine energy, one of which is a defensive posture, a posture of strength, a a showing of strength and of determination in a particular way. And that I feel that coming out in, in this circumstance in a different way than I have before. And there's something it's funny, it's like you were, we were talking about earlier, we're not, like, when I see a Canadian flag in a car now, like if you were to see that six months ago, that pretty well would've beenprobably was like someone who supported the convoy, right? Chris: Yeah. Directly, had F trudeau all over their Degan: Yeah. Chris: Pickup or whatever, Degan: Yeah. Not all but many of them. But when I see it now, it's interesting. It's I don't know what that flag actually means. I think it probably means we have got a nationalist. Sentiment because of this [00:25:00] brutish hockey team, we've gone south of us. Of course we beat them in hockey, so that's fine. Chris: But yeah, and let's not let's not pretend that our hockey players are our angels because they're, the 72 series was one because we beat the shit out of the Soviets, not because we played better hockey. Degan: Yeah. Chris: So Canada's not. There is a brutish side to, there's a, oh yeah. Canada, that sometimes we pretend doesn't exist. Degan: Fair enough. Fair enough. Chris: I want to, thinking about hockey and how, like one of the things you and I sometimes bond over is hockey. And we had a whole episode on sports, but I'm thinking more in a broader sense. Like we, we started talking about community. What can we, what can we do? Like you described something you did do, like that writing retreat was something you organized. Degan: Yeah. Chris: And and you said there were a couple of [00:26:00] trans people there one? Degan: Yeah. Chris: And oh, there was one. Okay. Yeah. But there was, you said there were a couple who had they, them pronouns gave them pronouns. Pronouns and that sort of thing. You created a little community and it's actually something I admire about you as your ability to bring people together. Degan: Thanks. Chris: Whereas I'm someone who, most of the time I'd rather just be alone. Very happy. And in fact, my self-care would probably involve a lot of solitude. Degan: yeah, fair enough. Chris: But just because I'm an introvert doesn't mean I don't live in a society, andI hate seeing people suffer and I really hate. People being targeted for suffering. Yeah. And of course, talked about this too, but I'm not gonna be like storming the Bastille or whatever. Obviously, storming Congress seems to have already been done in a nefarious way. Degan: There's some Tesla parking lots I can show you. Imagine Tesla. Chris: There's that. That's probably not [00:27:00] my personality and that's why the word community came up in my communication with you. Because what are the changes we can make in a small way? To support each other and also to even feel sane in this insanity, yeah. And so some of my thoughts were around like, not not so much organizing against something, but organizing in favour of something , like you were talking about art, like or it is not really what I'm thinking of. It's more like just like-minded people getting together Degan: Yeah. Chris: And feeling like they belong somewhere. Degan: Yeah. Chris: And. In a world where right now a lot of people are being told they don't belong. Degan: Yeah. Chris: And yeah. So in some ways and I don't wanna jump ahead too much on this, but in some ways. I'd like to reach out to [00:28:00] people listening to this podcast. And see if they have thoughts or if they would like to participate in something. Could we work together on something? Maybe we need some like-minded guests or something like that too. What are your thoughts on that? Degan: Yeah, no, I think. Chris: It's maybe very vague thoughts there. Degan: I think we can't underestimate, like I think here because I've just spent a week with six Americans who, you know, five. Chris: Were you the only Canadian in the group? Degan: No, there were two. Two of us. Chris: Oh, okay. Degan: Yeah, before last time I was, last year I was, when I got this group together, but but of those six, five of the six, no, sorry. Four of the six were, had they/them pronouns they almost all identified as queer in one way, shape or form. And just to say that we can't. Underestimate what it's like to feel you don't have community right now. [00:29:00] I, this is in the States, but I think this podcast knows no borders, right? But for example drag shows are banned in a number of states, and Chris: They're also protested in Canada. Of course. Degan: Yes, of course. We know that school boards have been overrun by people with an agenda, which is to shift and change the curriculum, which is so openly in support of L-G-B-T-Q and trans students and people that's a very concerted effort within school boards at the moment. And of course coming, not just Alberta, but many places in Ontario, many places in Canada still have that idea. And Pierre Polievre, just the other day, I was hearing him say there are only two pronouns, male and female. I don't know of any other as if, I don't even know of of the conversation. Of course he does. And we know what he thinks about this. So I guess what we're, what we thinking about this then? What do L-G-B-T-Q trans communities right now particularly need? And also I don't define myself as [00:30:00] queer even though I'm very much an ally. So what is our, what is my place, for example? And what are men's place, whether you're queer or not? They, he, she, whatever to, to stand up for communities that actually, or people that really do feel like they have to watch their back all the time. And they do have to watch their back all the time. And that, just to say off this, I think that needs some work from us to go out there. What I'd like to do here, one of the things we could do is talk about what we see that some of the needs are and some of the groups that are out there that we could even list, I think what we're doing is talking about identifying groups in society right now that are particularly targeted, and what is there a place for us? And if we can get ahead of that a little bit, then that's really meaningful. Chris: You and I are two white, straight. Degan: We're white dudes, people. Chris: Able-bodied dudes. Yep. And so we have the privilege, but we don't [00:31:00] have as much of the knowledge as I think I would like to have anyway. Ah. So this has to be a learning journey for us. Yeah. But it also has to be an active journey for us where we, we don't just say stuff I think the podcast is an action and everything. Yeah. But what do we do and beyond, beyond sharing ourselves and our experiences. And how do we, so I another group I think of as refugees, right? Yeah. And Degan: Totally. Chris: And I'm off Facebook now, but I got into an argument with someone who was referring to refugees as freeloaders. As if anyone would want to be a refugee because it's just like an easy ride. Degan: Yeah. Chris: And I've become friends a young woman from Afghanistan is has become friends of our family and I feel very attached to her now. Degan: Yeah. Chris: Because [00:32:00] when she came here, this group asked if we would if we would put her up for a week. And we did. And that week was a fantastic. Like we got to know her. Degan: Yeah. Chris: She taught us about Afghanistan. We helped her, get to places around the city and Degan: Wow. And, find a, that's amazing. Chris: Find a phone account and all this kind of thing. And now like we see her every other week and she's helping me with my business website, all this stuff. So Degan: Amazing. Chris: And when I look at what's happening, particularly south of the border, I would be really scared for her in the US and, the US is not that far away and, yeah. So yeah. I feel very protective of her. So what do I, yeah. I feel a bit better because I do I really enjoy helping her and I get to see her a lot. Degan: Yeah. Chris: And she is, she came to Canada speaking very good English, so that wasn't a [00:33:00] barrier and Yeah. And she's, she gets along with people very easily, but it doesn't take much right. To Degan: Yeah. Chris: For a society to turn on people and so Degan: Totally. Totally. Chris: So like, how do we support that? Yeah. How do we, I'm also in favour of helping the stranger, helping the refugee. Degan: Yeah. Yeah. Chris: And So these are things, Degan: didn't, you know that empathy is the basis of the problems in our society right now? Chris: Who, who was saying that? Oh, that was Elon Musk was saying that, toxic empathy. I call, he called it toxic. Degan: Toxic empathy. The truth that's beautiful. Is the truth is empathy. Darkly beautiful. Chris: Empathy is a neutral concept, right? Because it's just the ability to feel other people's feelings. Degan: It's a damn good start, my friend. Chris: Yes, but you can also use it for evil because if you can feel someone's feelings, you can also manipulate them. And so I think you have to go beyond empathy to compassion. And I value compassion even higher than empathy, Degan: [00:34:00] Right. And so empathy is a doorway through but I think, Chris: I think Musk's whole idea is that, caring about other people is somehow, it's very Ayn Randian, right? Degan: Oh, yeah. Chris: That if you care about other people, You are making yourself suffer somehow. It's like the zero sum game. If Degan: Yeah. Chris: Someone else gets something, you lose something and Degan: Yeah. It's interesting, right? The whole Trumpian idea, if you think about really what he does know, he didn't even do this well, but what he tried to do is make deals on all his life. And they literally failed all the way through, right? Trump University completely failed his, his what? Didn't he bankrupt a casino? Which Chris: I think a couple. Degan: A couple. Like he's not even good at what he purported to do but he still thinks that way. There are winners and there are losers, and what we're talking about is a whole different paradigm, which is just. Simply human beings. But I think what we've got is homework to do is around, we're talking about masculinity, we're talking about men, and we're talking about, a lot of straight white guys [00:35:00] that, that's what's who we are. These straight white guys with compassion, not just empathy. And. And what's a role we can do? So I think to me, I come away from this saying I'm gonna do some research and I wanna keep my eye on where are the places that, that guys, right now, men can do something of value that's really valued. And a lot of the first. Season was like, I certainly went inward. There was a lot of, Chris: Yeah, that was the point of season, right? Degan: That was the, that was it. It's and please go back and listen to it because we, I think we delved into shame and grief and sports in some of these areas, our own childhoods and a whole bunch of topics. That are the interior world of men, but this is a more exterior. I think we're talking now about action and that's a beautiful, I love your phrase too, feeling sane in this insanity. And perhaps like acting sane in this insanity. Chris: Modeling it for, yeah. Modeling it for boys, modeling [00:36:00] it for other men. Degan: Yeah. Chris: Modeling it for women who often don't feel safe around men. Degan: And, one thing just, and this is just like a big picture piece, but we, we see cowardliness right now in the States all over the place. We, and we see it from the New York Times. We see it from everyone kissing the ring of Trump, law firms universities, Columbia, universities. What? Making a deal already with Trump. And I, I'm not gonna just outright judge everybody and people are thinking, how can they survive? But I am judging the sense that they're capitulating, they're capitulating even before sometimes. They're being asked to capitulate. And Chris: Obeying in advance kind of thing Degan: though, obeying in advance. If you think about that from I think about that from a masculine energy standpoint, right? The idea of masculine energy, again, not just men, women, but being a defensiveness a strength, a determination, right? We're watching that fold and fold Chris: Defender than a defensiveness, I think. Degan: Sure. Sure. [00:37:00] Yes. A defender rather than defensiveness, right? Yes. But that means putting a blockage up. That means being brave. And I have felt personally in the last couple of months, like when all of this began, I actually, we've talked about our own histories. I had difficulties in the schoolyard for a few years. And it's in a way in the last couple of months, some of that has come back watching Trump and watching Musk go about their destruction, corruption and their absolutely bullying behavior. And it's taken me a couple of months to, and I think for a number of other people too, and organizations to actually put your feet on the ground and say, okay, I am not spinning as much. What now? So just to say that it's quite normal to be afraid, but what are we gonna do with it? What are we pulling out of our masculine selves to say this is wrong and I'm not just gonna talk about it. Yeah. I'm gonna do something about it. Chris: Yeah, yeah. I'm not just gonna, I'm not just gonna like post not that there's anything wrong with this. [00:38:00] That I'm not just gonna post a meme on the internet and yeah, call it a day. Degan: That's it. Chris: This is not the world we're in anymore. Degan: And thinking about this, telescoping ahead a little bit here on these, this sounds dramatic, but these are dramatic times. Chris: Absolutely. Degan: Think about what some Germans did what some Europeans, mainland Europeans did during Hitler's rise and during the Holocaust at hiding Jews hiding defectors or in France, those that would not bow down to the Vichy regime. These were the bravest people. There's nothing braver than that. To find a way, creatively to stand up to a literal evil empire. And I can't believe I'm even saying these words, but we may be looking at this. We actually are already in the United States. We're looking at it. My friends and many people are in danger simply because of who they are. Chris: Absolutely. Degan: And what their belief systems are like. Chris: There's this weird debate in the [00:39:00] states going on about whether they're in a constitutional crisis or not. It's huh, it doesn't matter. You are in a crisis. You are, yeah. It's a serious political crisis right now. It's a crisis through all levels of government, Degan: Except for the executive, which is the creator of the crisis. Chris: He's a walking crisis. And there used to be a time when we could think of this in a hypothetical way, right? Would I. Be someone who can do what's right. And there's a pretty good chance that we'll be tested on that in the next year or so. Yeah. And and so the, and I remember thinking this at after the US election what am I willing to do? What am I capable of doing? And how do I get ready and I think that the conversation now is the getting ready. Degan: Yeah. Chris: For when, yes. The moment of truth might come. Degan: Yeah. Chris: Hopefully it never does come. The good things can also [00:40:00] happen. But there may well be a moment of truth for each of us where, you give in or you stand up. Degan: Yeah. Chris: And it may not be putting yourself in physical danger. It might put be putting your career in danger. Degan: Yeah. Or you're Exactly. Chris: Or you're reputation in danger. Degan: Yeah. Chris: Or something like that. Degan: Exactly. Chris: But the danger is here. Degan: Yeah. Chris: And there are people that we. It's, first they came for the communists Degan: Yeah. Chris: And all that. Degan: Yeah. First they came for Greenland. Yeah. Chris: And I actually have a lot of hope. About, because I do think we will get, there will be another side to this. I think there is. I don't know that the light is at the end of the tunnel yet, but No, we're already seeing, Degan: We're seeing pushback, but it's still very early days. Chris: It's very early days. And my whole thing is how many people have to be hurt before we turn the tide. Degan: Yeah. Chris: And I don't think anybody deserves to be hurt. Yeah. And especially [00:41:00] if you are targeted for who you are, yeah. And what your belief systems are. Yeah. Degan: Your belief. Yeah. Chris: Like even beliefs I find abhorrent. Oh, you don't deserve to be hurt for them. Degan: Yeah, where we are seeing some fundamentals that the United States would prided itself on being absolutely subverted. The intrinsic quality of all citizens, which of course we know is BS for a long time, right? Yeah. Chris: But yeah. Somehow the slaves being two thirds or former slaves being three fifths of a person Yeah. Somehow fit with their equality. But, Degan: But the idea of that was broadcast into the world from the sixties onward and the idea ideas of free speech and plurality and that, we will exist and we'll be able to speak without it being hate speech, but being able to speak. Obviously. All of that is, we're looking up here again, how we began it. Ignite minds not books. We know the attack on education is terrifying and it's here as well, yeah. Chris: And I think maybe that's a good place to wrap up. I think we [00:42:00] are this, if this is our first episode, this is our brainstorm episode and our statement of intention episode, and our goal is to ignite our own minds. Totally. And said, decide on what our future actions are. Yeah. And and I hope we can reach out to some of these. I hope that we can connect with people who can both help us and who we can help. Degan: Absolutely. Chris: And that's what Degan: look forward to it. Chris: Honestly. That's what life is all about. That's what kind of man I want to be. Degan: Ditto. See you next week. Chris: See you next week. Thank you for listening to What Kind of Man Are You? The podcast is hosted by Degan Davis and Chris Garbutt. Produced by Chris Garbutt and VQC Media. We would love your feedback. Check out the show notes for ways to get in touch with us. 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