00:00:00 - Johnny Sanders

Do you enjoy listening to podcasts and think, man, I would like to make my own podcast? This is where I found myself last year, and I have learned a lot about what to do and a lot about what not to do. I'm offering consulting services to help you launch your podcast, especially if you're looking to make a more Christian or conservative podcast. Find out more information@faithfullyengaged.com. i have a link down in the description below if you would like help on getting your podcast. Well, welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Faithfully Engaged. Excited to have a guest with you today. Her name is Mandy Pallock, and I asked her before, did I get it right this time, Mandy, you got it right.

00:00:57 - Mandy Pallock

Good job.

00:00:58 - Johnny Sanders

All right, well, Mandy, why don't you share a little bit with the audience about yourself real quick?

00:01:03 - Mandy Pallock

Yeah. Thanks so much. I am so ecstatic to be here. I am Mandy Pallock. I'm happily married to the man of my dreams. We are raising three kiddos in southeast Texas. I'm a creative and a communicator. I have a background in photography, print production and writing. And then I've jumped into writing and podcasting over the last several years. And you know what? I passionately believe that lives will change as people engage with God’s word. That's who I am and what I do. And as we ask curious questions, that's how relationships are gonna be built. So that's what I'm really ecstatic about. And then just on the personal side, I drink coffee when I should swap to water. I like obstacle courses, even though I'm not good at them. And I will market a charcuterie board, which is just rebranded leftovers to my kids. So all that to say, that's who I am and where I come from. And we are happily raising a whole household of nerds that love Cs Lewis and J. R. R. Tolkien. And that's where. That's who we are. And I'm really grateful to be here talking with you, Johnny.

00:02:14 - Johnny Sanders

Awesome. I'm excited to get into this. I am curious, just, this is a question I sometimes ask with people on the show who have done podcasting because I've been doing this for about a year or so and kind of just stumbled into it. I'm curious, on your end, is this something that you always felt like you wanted to do a podcast? Did you just stumble into it yourself?

00:02:39 - Mandy Pallock

Yeah, it was one of those things where I've always declared that I want to find the effective tools for the message that God has given me and you know, so when photography is no longer that effective tool, I want to set it aside and pick something else up. And so I still have my camera. That's still an effective tool. But along the way, podcasting became one of those effective tools as well. So as long as it is, here I am and I'm enjoying it.

00:03:04 - Johnny Sanders

Great. Great. Yeah, it is always interesting. I had an episode about a month or so ago with a filmmaker, and I was really intrigued by that conversation. I don't know the first thing about filmmaking, but we got into just a discussion about the tools, and technology that is in our lives that can be used for God's glory. And we're talking about Hollywood and everything and how, you know, Hollywood is certainly not known for their, you know, biblical values and everything, but because of that, many Christians have just like, oh, all movies bad. Like, let's avoid all of that. Whereas, no, like, the medium is nothing wrong. It can be used, for God's glory. And podcast doesn't have quite the same, you know, type of belief around it. There are all sorts of podcasts out there, but I always think it's good and it's encouraging when people are using technology for good, for God's glory, and not just kind of running away and kind of sometimes Christians, we can have that bunker mentality that we just run away from the world and stay by ourselves, and that's really not what we need to do.

00:04:14 - Mandy Pallock

And to your point, I'm super passionate about conversation and communication and asking questions, and what a great tool as a way to do that, that I'm where you are. Like, you are in your space and I'm in mine. But using this, we can connect and ask great questions, and have good conversations, and God does good stuff with that.

00:04:34 - Johnny Sanders

Absolutely. So let's kind of just get into a little bit of, you know, talking about God's word and how we can understand him more. I'll be personal here real quick, I grew up, actually, where I currently reside in Duncan, Oklahoma, kind of middle Bible belt, lots of churches around. So lots of kinds of cultural Christianity, which is a blessing in a lot of ways. I see my hometown has a lot of good fruits from that, even if they aren't Christian. But we also see some downsides with that, too, that there are many people that just say that they're Christian and they've never been to church in their whole lives. They've never picked up a Bible, but they grew up in a Christian environment. So for those that have maybe grown up in that environment and maybe have had this false sense of like, yeah, I got it, I'm good. But they really don't know God. What's kind of your advice there as far as not just for them individually, but for listeners that maybe know those types of people, how do we engage them? And actually almost kind of. We talked about deconstruction in kind of a negative way in the church right now, but being able to deconstruct their understanding of what they think the Bible is, what they think Christianity is, with what the actual Bible says. Like, how can people start engaging those around them that, yeah. Think they know God, but they really don't.

00:06:10 - Mandy Pallock

Yeah, yeah. Such a good question. I love, love, love what God says when he says, draw close to me and I'm going to draw close to you. And so there's. We see throughout scripture that there's this holy history of asking really hard questions, that we see Jonah and David and Moses asking really hard questions of God. We see God asking hard questions or getting to know you questions or questions that reveal things of people's hearts. We see throughout scripture people asking questions of each other and how important is it? And, like, scripture wouldn't be scripture without the questions that are in there. And so there's this beautiful thing about it. And you talk about deconstruction, and so. Yeah, sometimes we think of deconstructing as a negative thing, but here's another word that you bump into is reformation. Like, we think of reformation as a positive thing, but what is that? That's reformation. And so I think they're just synonyms in a healthy way, in a God-focused way. Those are synonyms. It's saying, God. I've grown up in this context. I grew up in this with these assumptions or these expectations or these ideas, and I need you to help me unpack which ones are from you, which ones are scriptural, and which ones are ready for me to leave behind as I move forward into a deeper relationship with you. And so when we bring that. That open questioning to the word of God, God's gonna be there. He's gonna meet us in it, and I love that.

00:07:49 - Johnny Sanders

Yeah, no, I really like that emphasis on questioning. I'm gonna butcher this because I'm blanking on who this person was who said this quote. But we're in a small group. It's been about a year ago, and some famous theologian or evangelist, I don't remember who was saying that being able to present the gospel is like. It's like 90% questions, just asking those questions. Well, why do you believe that? What gives that evidence to that? What do you think that says about God's character revealing that, in scripture? You're right. Questions are all throughout that. What do you think that reveals about him? Why, why should questions just be so important for us to ask?

00:08:38 - Mandy Pallock

Man? So I'm going to reference a friend of mine and someone I really respect. His name is Doctor Jeff Myers. He is the founder and president of a ministry in Manitou Springs. It is a worldview ministry called Summit Ministries. And I love what he says. He says that God made us to be curious, like it's a part of who we are and he doesn't have to violate the personality that he designed. So here we are asking questions, being curious, because it's who God made us to be and he made us for relationships. And so it's curiosity in that we're not meant for static realities. We're growing. And so I don't know if that answers your question. That's a thought that comes to mind.

00:09:22 - Johnny Sanders

Yeah, no, I really like that kind of talking off-camera about some of the audience and where they might be in life. In my life, we are steep in the middle of a young childhood. My oldest is almost five. My youngest just turned one and got a three-year-old in the middle. So there are a lot of questions in this household. It is just filled with questions, filled with curiosity. My one-year-old is all over the place with things. This is another thing within Christian circles. I think that Bible-believing Christians rightfully understand the negative view of human hearts, that we are sinful, we're deprived, we need a savior, and that's good. We need to understand that if we are perfect, we don't need a savior. So that's really good. We miss sometimes those made in the image of God. And while we are sinful beings, there is goodness in creation as well. We're not all just horrible, terrible of every piece of it. Our heart is off. Yes. And it worships the self, but we are made in his image. And I love what you're saying with that. And I love using kids as examples because you see that curiosity, you see that creativity in little ones as they're figuring out the world. And how beautiful is that? That is how God designed us. He designed us in that creative way.

00:11:02 - Mandy Pallock

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I did a little deep dive into this. Did you know that experts actually say that between the years of, I think, one and five kids ask 40,000 questions?

00:11:17 - Johnny Sanders

I believe that.

00:11:18 - Mandy Pallock

Yeah, you do. And when you do the math, you're like, you know, that's just 100 questions a day. That makes sense. And so, yeah, you're like that. That makes a lot of sense. And something else you said reminds me of something that Cs Lewis said, which is that there are no ordinary people. We've never talked to a mere mortal. And it's this reality that every person that we're speaking to, whether it's our child or our spouse or our co-worker, that we're speaking to someone that is made in the image of God and reflects a part of that design in the world, and that they are not a mere mortal.

00:11:58 - Johnny Sanders

Yeah, I think that's really important, especially in today's age. This is something I talk about often, especially on my Friday shows, and I do a quick little livestream that's just with me. It's not. Not the interview. And we talk a lot about more, just things that are going on in the news and things of that nature. And don't get me wrong, there's a lot of bad stuff out there, and there's a lot of people doing some nasty things in the world. There's no question about that. I think one of my big critiques, especially those that lean more on the right politically, is we can rightly point out, okay, these are problems. These are issues. Great. Um, but the source of the problems can be off. And it can go from attacking the issue, maybe attacking the sin, to, well, they're horrible. Like, we need to get vengeance on this individual. Um,  and we miss that. That's where we become. We become God there. Um, and we're enacting the justice, whereas that person's made in God, in God's image, just as us, that person, we deserve just as bad as that, as they do. Well, we believe that as Christians, it's not that what we have done that's earned salvation, and that needs to be kept in perspective here as we're going through all sorts of different cultural issues that, yeah, it's okay to call things out for being wrong, but you're not the hero in the story. And I think we need to remember that. Yeah, I. We are all made in God's image. Even those. Even our enemies, even those that are doing bad against us are still made in God's image.

00:13:39 - Mandy Pallock

And a wise person would, you know, pray before even kicking off a conversation or giving a cultural assessment to really just say, God, I know that you made this person. Would you help me see how you see them? And that. I wonder if we just pray that prayer before we go into a conversation, how different it would be.

00:14:00 - Johnny Sanders

Yeah, I think that's it. It's incredible for me, a lot of the parallels I see in my, in my day job as, as a counselor, I ask. That's basically my job- asking questions. That's basically all I do, listen and ask questions. And to see that unveiling there, I may not always understand, and maybe I do call them out at times. Sometimes that's a part of that. But to understand where they are coming from, and understand their perspective, I may disagree with that perspective, but do I understand it? And again, that's where we think. As Christians, we, again, need to call out our own sin, too, actually, not just, before. It needs to be ours first. If I'm approaching, I'm rightly calling someone's sin out, but I'm approaching it in that prideful way that I know better and I don't really care to understand where they're coming from. We've missed the plot there now we've missed that. And that prayer helps us slow down. And there's some of that parallel with the psychological. When I take a deep breath before I'm angry and lash out at my kids or whatever, that calms me down. And that prayer is almost that spiritual deep breath there. My hope is that it helps us really sink that in before we act.

00:15:29 - Mandy Pallock

Yeah. You know, another prayer that I've learned from my pastor, his name is Kirk Freeman, and he writes and shares on discipleship and mentoring, too. But he talks about something called an include me prayer, which is the acknowledgment that God is at work, that Jesus is doing his redemptive work everywhere, and we're simply asking him to include us in the work that he's already doing. So this really simple prayer of, you know, as I'm getting ready for the day, rushing out the door to take my kids to school or off to a meeting, I can pray, Jesus, would you include me in the work that you're doing so I don't have to force it. I don't have to go looking out of anxiety or stress or pressure for a conversation or to bring in and force something, but instead, I can just say, Jesus, would you include me in what you're doing and be very aware and ready for the adventure that he brings? Because it's going to be good.

00:16:20 - Johnny Sanders

Yeah. Yeah. And that leads really well into this next piece. I wanted to get into that sometimes it's easier for us to think again in the greater cultural context. Who I'm going to vote for this policy is wrong or whatever it may be. And those are important things, but they're so broad, they're really not that personal. Whereas my neighbor, my family member. Yeah, that's personal. That gets really deep. And you already kind of hit this with that prayer too, and, hey, God used me through this. A lot of people may be anxious, be worried, all right, I know what to say. Or maybe, I mean, no good questions, but I'm afraid to ask him because he might judge me, she might judge me, or our relationship might be affected. So for those who are afraid of what those results may be, What can they do to help develop some of that? That confidence in order to ask these important questions?

00:17:27 - Mandy Pallock

Yeah. Okay. I just got to say, I am an awkward person that got into questions because I was so scared of talking to people. I hated it when people would ask me questions. I hated being put on the spot, and I knew I was going to mess it up. And so that is no joke how I got into discovering how beautiful questions were because I realized that if I asked a question, Johnny, then somebody else would start talking and I didn't have to do the talking anymore. And so as a 100% introvert raised in a family of extroverts, yeah, that's how I started asking questions. And I think, okay, so thing number one, it's okay if it's awkward, and it helps if you just say, hey, this might be an awkward question, but help me out. I'm really curious. I want to know. And so just stating the obvious and jumping into it is so great. And people are going to respond to that. And then another thing is, we know what it's like to be attacked with a question, right? Because questions are just tools. Just like photography or podcasting, like we were talking about before. The question is just a tool. Like, are you gonna wear that? What were you thinking? How could you have done that? How could you? What were you like, how was that? So stupid. Like, those are. Those are questions that are only going in one direction, right? And so tone of voice and posture and facial expressions make so much difference. And so, even before I open my mouth, you know that prayer, Jesus, would you include me in this leaning in, having a curious tone of voice and a soft or excited expression instead of an angry, upset one? Those things make a big difference in how a question is going to be, be received. And then a third thing, if I can say, oh, go ahead.

00:19:17 - Johnny Sanders

Yeah, go ahead. No, you go ahead.

00:19:18 - Mandy Pallock
Yeah. Well, a third thing that comes to mind. So, first of all, just acknowledge that it's okay to be awkward and then ask the question and then think about tone of voice and posture. And then another thing is, like, it's okay if a question doesn't land. You know, I've. I got a preteen in the house, and we're shooting for, you know, more than one syllable answer sometimes. And sometimes the one-syllable answer is the win. And the point is, in a resilient relationship, I'm going to keep showing up. He knows I'm going to keep showing up. We are going to be there for the long haul, and we're not leaving. And so if you ask a question and it doesn't stick or it doesn't spark a. A life-changing conversation, that is okay. Like, our masterpieces are painted Just one little brushstroke at a time, and that's what parenting is. That's what discipleship is. That's what relationships are. It's one brushstroke at a time. And so one question at a time, one idea at a time, one thought at a time. So, yeah, don't give up. That's the other thought.

00:20:23 - Johnny Sanders

I really like that. The practical nature of those tips there, and also the fact that they are not results-driven. And what I mean by that is we set goals, especially if you're in, like, in some business background or whatever. Here are the goals for this quarter, and when we need to make this many sales or whatever, that's all fine and good. There's nothing wrong with setting a goal based on results. The issue with that, when it comes relationally, is you only control your end of the portion.

00:20:58 - Mandy Pallock

Absolutely.

00:20:59 - Johnny Sanders

I can ask a fantastic question, and if I don't get a result if they don't answer, then they don't answer. So I'm holding myself accountable to asking good questions, to have that good body language, that posture. As you were sharing that, it reminded me of my daughter just last night. Something we've been working on with her is to. To be a little bit more, more calm around people she doesn't know, especially if we're right there. She's got a lot of good stranger danger, which has some benefits, but if mommy and daddy are here, it's okay. And after having this, this lady in her home, she didn't know, she told us afterward she was practicing her smile with people she didn't know. So she was really putting in that work to be confident and show that smile. Even though she was still afraid, she was still practicing that, and she was putting in that work there to have those, good relationships, and even future in her life. And she was focused on her there, what she could do there. The other lady was super nice, but she might not have been right, she could only control herself. And the same thing with ourselves. We can control our posture, and our questions, and control whether we accept. Yep, this could be awkward, but it's worth it anyway, even if you don't get the results. So being too results-oriented can just keep you from doing anything sometimes, yeah.

00:22:31 - Mandy Pallock

Absolutely. There's some really interesting research from the Barna group on what discipleship looks like and what resilient relationships look like. One of the things that they've unpacked is that one of the things that makes the difference with young people staying in the church is that they interact with the Bible four more times a week. And I love that because it's not. They went to a conference and their life was changed. It's not. They heard that one sermon and that made all the difference. It's that. No, there was this series of conversations of deep conversations with God. Really? That's what that is. Interacting with the Bible four times a week. And that's what, you know, we're doing as parents, you're doing as, as people, as co-workers or friends, when you interact with, with someone and bring in a faith-based conversation, that's interacting with the Bible and. And that's going to make a difference. Just keep doing it.

00:23:38 - Johnny Sanders

Absolutely. And along with that, kind of brings in a topic of purpose, that this is something. Unfortunately, I see basically every day with clients that I see from all walks of life that there's just not a lot of purpose. And I tell them point blank, if your life has zero purpose, it doesn't matter. You're just an ant. We squish the ant. And guess what? No one cares. It's not a big deal. And if I believe that, that's when things get dangerous. That's when we do see suicide rates rise and things like that because they believe they don't matter. Now, that's not true. Um, and that's where I think as a culture, especially as. As we have drifted away from having more of a biblical type of culture, we get our purpose through x, are through internal means, um, through just through ourselves, um, and we don't always feel good now. We don't always feel good about ourselves or our circumstances. And I find in my life, and I tell this with a lot of my clients, that my faith, brings purpose because I don't have to do anything. I didn't do anything to earn that. That forgiveness, my good works, did not earn me forgiveness for my sins. My God did. And that brings, that brings purpose. And part of why I'm getting into this is we know we have the good news. We have, we have just this light here in a culture that is drastically losing purpose. And with that, how can we, one, maybe do a better job of living our lives with purpose? And two, how can we show that? How can we show that to the culture that desperately needs it?

00:25:38 - Mandy Pallock

Yeah. Oh, such a good question, Johnny. You know, I'll go back to that, that prayer. You know, what if we prayed that prayer every morning, Jesus, would you include me in what you're doing? Right. God answers prayers like that. He does. And so here, waking up with a prayer on our lips, ready to jump into what he has for us. And I'm passionate about purpose and, like, knowing that you're living out that purpose. And it makes me think of those verses in Deuteronomy six where God says to talk about these things when you sit in your house and walk, by the way, and lie down and rise. And I love that those are normal things that happen every single day. Those aren't the big high water marks of a life. Those are the everyday moments of life that become so important as we live them. And so, yeah, the purpose is looking for opportunities when you're sitting in your house and when you're walking, by the way, at work or beyond and when you're lying down and when you're rising again. And so thinking through, how is Jesus including me in this moment right here? That is a pretty amazingly purposeful thing. And so, you know, and what God is calling us to in that Deuteronomy six passage is, you know, to teach our, specifically here, teach them. Teach our children diligently. And so, like, teaching them diligently does not mean you sit and I talk or you rise and I talk. It's this conversation that's filling with courage and supporting them and whether they're our kids or somebody else's, you know, supporting someone as they seek to rightly handle God's word. So, yeah, yeah.

00:27:23 - Johnny Sanders

And, you know, something you were saying just now reminded me of an individual I worked with years and years ago, this was somebody that struggled. It was around Mother's Day, and she was unable to have her own children. Elderly lady at the time, so well past her childbearing years, but really struggled throughout her life because of that. And definitely feel for anybody who has wanted children and has been unable to conceive those days can be very difficult. And I left that conversation so encouraged because she, while, yes, expressed grief that that was a hard weekend for her, also talked about all the children through the years that she impacted through Sunday school and through volunteering and being able to do all sorts of events and everything. And I just thought that was so beautiful that could take the hurt, one of the deepest hurts that you can have to want a child and not be able to have one and still find purpose, especially with the younger generation. And I definitely want to encourage those who are listening that maybe you're there with me. Maybe you just haven't found a husband, haven't found a wife. And I tell people this all the time, I've been married now for about seven years and love my wife to death. And even if I didn't love my wife to death, you couldn't pay me enough money to date again. It's just not. It's not a fun place to be. I feel for anybody that's in that. In that stage of life. But you do have a purpose. And like you're saying, how can you invite God in to give you that purpose? I'll say this, that me being married and having three young kids, I'm not able to really give a whole lot of extra time. I'm pretty busy. You that's single out there, you're not. And doesn't mean you have to do everything, but you can make an impact, or you can sit and just kind of feel sorry for yourself. And that's. That's where we invite God to have a purpose in our life. Even if we don't have our own kids, you can still impact the younger generation, impact your local church, and your community. You may be able to do a lot. Even though it may not be your plan. God can be a part of that. That plan for you.

00:29:58 - Mandy Pallock

Anyway, I love that thought, Johnny. It's so true. And it's really. It's just looking for those moments to engage in purposeful conversation with whatever relationships you have. You know, if you're sitting, if you're in line at the grocery store, I could choose to scroll on my phone and I have made that choice as I'm in line at the grocery store, or I could choose to purposefully wait and look. And, you know, if I'm two people down the line, I can start by praying for that person who's going to be checking me out. And then, you know, as the introvert, I have, what, a whole minute to actually come up with something to say. You know, and so then I can jump into a conversation just in that moment where I can ask them, hey, what's the best thing that's happened to you today? Or how's your life? On a scale of one to ten, what's the most surprising thing that you've had happen to you in the past 48 hours? Like, you know, kind of asking those questions, just as this moment of, it's that brushstroke of a relationship, and we're just looking for ways to ask curious questions to make the best use of time. Cause we gotta drive to school either way or drive to work either way, or, you know, the laundry still has to get done, and dinner still has to be made. How can we redeem everyday moments? By bringing the Holy Spirit into them. And one of them is simply asking a question.

00:31:22 - Johnny Sanders

Yeah. And I love the practical tip of just asking the question. I guarantee you, every single day, you will have an opportunity to ask a question. It may be to the cashier. How are you doing today? You know, something my mom really encourages is, what's your name? Being able to get somebody's name, your server or whoever has it. Have a great day, Mandy. That little thing saying somebody's name, that you have no idea what that might do for them. So, yes, there's the big purposes. Trying to start a family, have kids, find a new job, or whatever. That's great. Um, but the day-to-day stuff, there are chances to find that purpose. But, like, you're saying you. You have to look for it, and you have to invite God along there with you and to actually seek that because it can be there staring at you. In the face and like, oh, I have no purpose. Which is just right there, you just have to be seeking it.

00:32:30 - Mandy Pallock

Mm hmm, mm hmm. Yeah. And when. And when something like, let's say you ask a question, and then all of a sudden, someone does reveal a part of their heart to you in a really surprising way. You're like, I was not expecting that revelation. Be ready for it and be willing to engage and be willing to follow on and take it deeper and have a deeper conversation.

00:32:52 - Johnny Sanders

Absolutely. Well, Mandy, I think that this was a wonderful conversation that we could probably have much longer. Also, it's a good question here that we could ask for those who are interested, maybe interested in your podcast and some of your writing and speaking and everything. How can people find out more about you after the show? Do you have anything in particular you would like people to check out?

00:33:18 - Mandy Pallock

Yeah. Thanks so much for asking. So, I have a book called The Question Habit. And it's all about building resilient relationships with God and others. One question at a time. And it starts by looking at questions in scripture, some of the ones we were talking about. And then it gets super practical. And the focus is, how can you ask questions in a non-awkward way in your daily life? And because I am a big fan of that, I've discovered that there's no shame at all in actually having questions ready ahead of time. And so I have some questions, like conversation starters that are just available for free on my website. So if someone were to go to thequestionhabit.com, they could find my book and then also just download those free questions that you could have. You could store them on your phone and pull them out the next time you're in a cardinal ride or walking around the block with someone. So I'm on Instagram as Mandy Pallock and would love to engage. My podcast is called Presently Engaged with Mandy Pallock.

00:34:21 - Johnny Sanders

Fantastic. Well, I'll include all that in the description and show notes below so that you all can check it out. And yeah, Mandy, it was great having you on.

00:34:32 - Mandy Pallock

Thank you so much. I'm a big fan of what you're doing and the message that you're sharing.

00:34:36 - Johnny Sanders

I appreciate it and appreciate everybody who joined us today, and we'll catch you on the next episode.