Episode 4 - CPD and Accessing Resources
 
[00:00:55] Laura Richards: Welcome to the latest episode of All Things EAP. I'm Laura Richards at the University of Leeds.
[00:01:01] Paul Breen: And I'm Paul Breen from UCL and also part of BALEAP's social justice SIG.

[00:01:06] Laura Richards: Today's episode is brought to you by the Teacher Education in EAP SIG and the BALEAP Access to Literature project. These two projects both delve into the ways in which EAP practitioners can and want to access literature and CPD, and it's a really interesting look into the picture around the globe for EAP practitioners in terms of their own professional development. Paul, you've had a listen to the discussion. What were the highlights for Liu of the discussion? 

[00:01:40] Paul Breen: Well, I felt that there was a really international feel to this episode and some great practical examples of research. I was particularly interested in anything to do with technology-led learning. and the practical development of people in their workplaces. But I think from a social justice perspective, I was also very interested in the barriers to accessing some of the resources that people need in order to develop fully as EAP practitioners, particularly around such things as library subscriptions, for example, or conference attendance or courses in professional development.

So there's a lot in here in terms, not just of research, but also practical ways in which we can develop on some of the barriers to that development. 

[00:02:38] Laura Richards: Yeah, definitely. And I think the two projects, so the first of which being, um, a piece of research from the Teacher Education in EAP SIG looked at trying to understand what CPD EAP practitioners want to be able to access. And then the access to literature project, which was a BALEAP funded project highlights that the picture looks quite different around the world. And I think one of the things you've just mentioned there is access to libraries. And this is something I never think about as a practitioner, because I feel very privileged that I work at an institution that has a huge library and is very willing to buy in new material as and when we request it, but this was something that I just never would have thought of before.

[00:03:22] Paul Breen: Yeah. And again, I suppose I'm in the same position, but I am aware that not everyone is in that position of, of privilege. And I think they're almost caught in a catch 22 situation in some ways in that in order to get into that position, you do need access to these resources. You need to go to conferences. You need to read the materials related to it. But it can be quite costly, not just in terms of money, but also time so that we're certainly there's a lot of issues there and I think I think listeners will find this is very informative and just to get that international perspective as well just shows that a lot of these issues are universal actually across our practice.
[00:04:14] Laura Richards: Yeah, there was a mention of colleagues on precarious contracts who don't get funding for conferences or time off as well. So it isn't just an issue internationally, it's definitely something that hits close to home as well. But I was very heartened to hear that practitioners in who find themselves in the position of not being able to access these higher profile resources do listen to podcasts. So it's nice to know that we're doing something that can reach those practitioners who really want to develop their understanding of these topics within our discipline and, and don't necessarily have access to those resources. So, without further ado onto the discussion. So you're going to listen to Michelle Evans, Carol MacDiarmid, Lindsay Knox and Yan Hua Liu , talking about their two respective projects.
Enjoy listening.
 
[00:05:05] Michelle Evans: Welcome to the episode. I'm Michelle Evans. I work at the University of Leeds and I'm part of the podcast production team. 

[00:05:12] Lindsay Knox: Hi, I'm Lindsay Knox, and I work at the University of Edinburgh.

[00:05:17] Yanhua Liu: I'm Yanhua Liu from the Hong Kong University of Science and Technology in Guangzhou.

[00:05:22] Carole McDiarmid: And I'm Carol MacDiarmid. I work at the University of Glasgow, and with Lindsay I'm co-chair of the Teacher Education and EAP Special Interest Group (SIG).

[00:05:31] Michelle Evans: Wonderful. So the episode's about continuing professional development for EAP practitioners. Why don't we start with introducing the two studies that we're going to talk about today. do you want to start with your study, background information, how it started?

[00:05:49] Lindsay Knox: Yeah, sure. Once we got our SIG up and running, what we realised was that we, we kind of had two constituent groups in our special interest group, and so it started partly to provide a space for people like me and Carole who are in roles which are concerned and interested in professional development for EAP practitioners. But we also quickly realized it would be a valuable space for people working in different contexts in EAP all around the world and who perhaps didn't have access to CPD opportunities. So that was kind of the two constituent groups of the SIG. And so, one of the very first things that we wanted to do in our group is to actually get a better understanding of what CPD activity was going on in the EAP sector, what people were doing, but also what they needed. And we thought that that would help us actually plan the kind of activities that would be most relevant and be useful for, for colleagues in the sector.
[00:06:56] Michelle Evans: Maybe I'll jump in and say a little bit about the BALEAP Access to Literature project. It started, I think when we were working online and, you can see people's kind of situation behind them and their kind of personal libraries, you know, so many EAP lecturers having these lovely display of books behind or getting involved in reading groups.

And I thought, I wonder how many practitioners actually might not have access, to that lovely personal library or might struggle to access different sorts of resources for their own professional development or for whatever they need the literature for. And so that was the question really. It kind of evolved from there. What the project was what do we think EAP practitioners want to access? What literature do they want to access and do they have any challenges or barriers accessing it and what could be done about that. Shall we talk about kind of setting it up and getting it going and who was involved?

[00:07:52] Carole McDiarmid: Yeah. So for the SIG we wanted to look at what people were doing. So the availability types of institutional, individual, CPD, drivers constraints, focus, and what people needed. We were already a team within the SIG. Lindsay and I knew each other, but most of the committee, we didn't know each other, but we were an established team to start off the initial ideas for the survey, but we also workshopped it, an external event, and then revised it. A lot of the work was done within our SIG committee team online, because we all work in different places.

[00:08:30] Michelle Evans: It was a bit different for us, Yanhua , wasn't it?
 
[00:08:32] Yanhua Liu: So I joined the, the, the BALEAP access to literature project when I saw an ad recruiting a co-researcher for the project on the BALEAP mailing list, and so I reached out had an interview and that's how I got to know the team.

And from then on we, we worked as a team with, with Michelle and two other members including the BALEAP research officers Laetitia as well as Susie. We also had another member Judith Gorham joined us in the middle.
[00:09:06] Michelle Evans: Yeah, so BALEAP agreed to fund it and it would be nice to highlight to people that it is possible to apply to BALEAP for funding for these sorts of projects. And , indeed, BALEAP fund this podcast. So. You know, if you have a project idea, or if you want to work with some co researchers, then that's a possibility. Just put a proposal through to BALEAP, I think the new research publication officer might be able to help out Angelos, but certainly the executive committee are really supportive of project ideas.

 We spent a bit of time trying to figure out the dynamics as a team because we're in different contexts, different approaches and different ideas of scholarship of teaching and learning and research. Whereas I think in your situation, Carol, what you've explained is you're all part of this community already.

[00:09:52] Carole McDiarmid: , I think our main constraint was, was time really, because we were all at different times very busy at work with the pandemic. That's when we started this quite a long time ago, picked up and put it down a number of times, but we didn't know each other. We had to work out time zones and eventually, although all the committee were involved at different stages, in the end, it was a small core of us who really concentrated on clarifying the survey design and taking it forward.

[00:10:19] Lindsay Knox: I think that collaboration was really a plus of of the whole thing. I think probably for both projects, wasn't it? Because I think sometimes when you're embarking on these kind of projects, if you're doing it individually, it can feel quite lonely and it's good to have that, that team and, and coming from different contexts as well. I think that was a hallmark of both projects.

[00:10:39] Michelle Evans: I would agree with that, definitely. Yeah, it was key for us. It just made it better, in so many different ways. Shall we go on to talk about the methodology and some of the take home things?

[00:10:50] Carole McDiarmid: So with ours, we mentioned that we started obviously thinking about our research questions. So we were looking at what's available institutionally and what is available and supported by institutions. What do individuals do? Is this self directed? And so that could be for people within their institution or working independently.
What were the drivers, motivations, and then the constraints to engagement, their focus of what they do. I'm quite interested in what people actually do in their CPD, and also what their perceived needs and wants were. So we put together the initial draft of the questions, we workshopped this to get external views on that and then refined it. We spent quite a long time trying to sort out the questions and then work out what was going to be easy and accessible for people to answer. So we had mainly closed questions, we had drop downs and lists, various things. We had open questions at various points for some extra input but really we wanted people to be able to answer it quickly because we know participation drops off when surveys get too long and so on. We didn't use the pre existing one, there wasn't one we particularly knew about. 

We'd known the Fitzpatrick et al. article came out after ours, but when we started we couldn't find anything specific. So that's how we started with it and then we had five different sections looking at availability and engagement, and then driver's, constraints, and then focus. But we also had sections on practitioners roles, their experience, their routes into EAP, and then where they were and how they accessed the survey.
[00:12:30] Lindsay Knox: It was a real learning curve though, wasn't it, Carol, for us, the whole questionnaire? Because although we know sort of instinctively it's difficult to write a good questionnaire, we really find that out actually and all the little bumps in the road of is this question going to work and sort of trying it out. 

[00:12:47] Michelle Evans: This, this rings bells, Yanhua, can you remember the other things that came up for us in the questionnaire design? 

[00:12:53] Yanhua Liu: We spent quite a bit of time figuring out the questions we should ask and how to structure them. And for the format or platform we use Microsoft forms, but at the beginning We started with something else, but Microsoft Forms is easier for us to organize.
And I think, yeah, we, we also tried to include both quantitative or objective questions as well as open questions. 

[00:13:20] Michelle Evans: We piloted it as well. I remember one of the discussions we had was accessing participants, thinking about what sorts of networks and how do we how do we attract people? What labels or names do we use? Like do we say EAP? Do we say "do you teach academic language and literacies? Do you teach academic communication?". You know all the different phrases that people might be using in different contexts. And we have a big list of networks that we used . We desperately wanted to get to 100. We got 87 responses on the questionnaire. We did have interviews and focus groups as well. 12 people, I think, took part in those. I know for your questionnaire, I think you had about 130 odd from 24 different countries? 

[00:14:03] Carole McDiarmid: 137 from 25 different countries. 76 were in the UK, which is actually around about 50- 55%. So actually we did get quite a lot internationally, although scatters of people around the world. 

[00:14:19] Lindsay Knox: I think the network question is quite interesting though, isn't it? Because I think it links with the collaboration that we were talking about, because when you actually do these things collaboratively, you then find out about networks you know, that you didn't know existed that you don't have familiarity with.

So I think that, that sort of sharing this, even through this podcast, that's actually quite useful because certainly, you know, in your own context you know who to contact, but actually there's, there's a lot going on that we don't know about and we have to be, I think we really do have to be quite careful not to, certainly for us in the UK, also of looking inward to the UK and making sure that we're, we're finding out what, what it looks like in other places and how we communicate, practice and share practice.

[00:15:02] Carole McDiarmid: And actually, I know from colleagues that I've worked contacted, for example, in Turkey and in, to a certain extent in China, they were saying, Oh, we have, you know, we have big chat groups on WhatsApp or other chat communications. We'll share it that way, which we didn't know about, but, but learned. But yeah, that's a real learning point is and ways to communicate.

I think that could be something we could take away from talking about both these projects as a resource or forum where we can say these, these are networks you can use to communicate. 
 
[00:15:32] Yanhua Liu: Yeah, similar ideas here. I think the, the collaboration mentioned by Lindsay is, is very important. among us team members. So , I am based in China, so I have access to my local networks, including the EAP association, and uh, certainly echo the, the point mentioned by Carol
that in the Chinese community of language teachers and EAP teachers we use a lot of WeChat groups as well as a QQ groups. So I advertised our project through these groups. I think hopefully and I think eventually that led us to quite a quite a significant number of participants for questionnaires.

 We also used individual networks. I think I, I reached out to, to some faculty members in the universities I know in China, they, they have big language centers. So I reached out to them and also advertised on my own personal networks in order to attract people to, to participate in our study. And Michelle did the same thing, 

[00:16:33] Michelle Evans: I think over half of the participants came from outside of the UK, I think up to 28 percent from China. uh, in terms of participants, you mentioned , Carol, in your study that participants tended to be quite experienced practitioners um, with uh, kind of good level of qualifications.

I think we have a similar cohort . Certainly, yeah more experience. So over 70 percent had a post grad qualification, 37 percent had a doctorate, 52 percent had a teaching qualification, which was interesting thinking about where teaching qualifications are required to be an EAP practitioner in different contexts.

And most people have been teaching between 15 to 19 years. 16 percent having 30 or above years of teaching experience, but EAP specifically most people between 5 and 14 years, with 9 percent over 25 years. So, I suppose we perhaps didn't capture people with less EAP experience and perhaps didn't capture people on more precarious contracts Most of our most of our participants were in full time employment, 20 percent part time, but I think we didn't fully capture what we wanted to.

[00:17:47] Carole McDiarmid: Uh Yeah, I think ours was the same. So that's something for, you know, future work is how do we reach more people and get them engaged in these types of surveys and find out wants and needs from them.

[00:17:58] Lindsay Knox: I think that came up very informally for me in a conversation with someone who, who is in a slightly more precarious context and had seen the invitation to our survey but didn't think it was for them. So I think that kind of played into that. community aspect and who is your community and, and can you have a voice in it.

For me, that was quite an important point as well.

[00:18:22] Michelle Evans: Before we go on to talk about some of the key findings, we thought it might be an idea to talk a little bit more about the approach to the data analysis and that kind of collaborative approach and the, the ups and downs of doing that. So we've mentioned using, MS Forms, but then we, we were, we were old school in our Excel kind of spreadsheet going through manual qualitative coding. For the interviews and focus groups, two people coded one transcript and then another person kind of did a sense check over, but it was very interesting our different approaches to it and the quantitative side of it, I'll let Yanhua kind of talk a bit more about that. How did, how was it for you and where are you up to with that on your project?

[00:19:05] Lindsay Knox: So I think there's definitely a lot more that we want to do. We were very careful when we presented our findings at Crete, we were very careful to say they were very preliminary, very exploratory at the beginning. So we did quite a lot of descriptive analysis and so with the closed questions, you know, we were able to produce percentages and numbers of how many people did certain kinds of activities et cetera, but it wasn't sort of statistical or quantitative in the way that, you know, we might like to try and investigate further.

 One of the highlights of collaborating on this podcast is that we've, we've learned that Yan Hua is quite expert, so we, we will probably be calling on him.

[00:19:41] Yanhua Liu: Okay. I would say I, I have some, some training and experience in doing quantitative analysis. Previously I had did some, I did some statistical analysis in ANOVA, T Test. logistic regression. And for our project, we, we try to link the participant background such as their a contract and, and their teaching status with whether it's full time or part time and link these parameters with their type of literature they want to access or the courses they teach. We did that bit and using chi square because all the, all the categories, all these parameters are categorical data instead of numbers or frequency data. And I basically found two significant associations between their background and their, the courses they teach.

[00:20:37] Michelle Evans: I think it feels like there's so much data available. There's so many more kind of correlations and relationships we could look at, and then trying to interpret why, you know, where does that come from? Why is that the case? For example one of the associations was um, People teaching pre university level students were more likely to say they wanted to access more discipline specific literature. And we were figuring out, okay, what could be some of the reasons for that, you know? Is it pre university, therefore they're not using the text that the students are currently working with, therefore they're having to source the text themselves? Are they on an international foundation year or on a pathway course? So doing all this interpretation work was was interesting. And I think there's probably a lot more that we could do, really. What about some of the key findings then? What were some of the key messages around, you know, people's drivers or constraints or what sort of CPD they were accessing institutionally or individually for you?

[00:21:35] Lindsay Knox: So I think, so we looked at both institutionally, but then we also asked a question about what people were doing you know, from their own initiatives. And so I think institutionally, what we, what we found was sort of like the. The main things that people were doing institutionally were quite ad hoc sessions, so they would sign up for things and go to different things.

Technology led learning was a big, a big interest for people in that. People were sort of relying on maybe what you might call more traditional forms of professional development, like observations and peer observations, and they would also go to university conferences and institutional things as well.

What was probably more striking within the institutional context was that striking but perhaps not surprising, I don't know is that things which required financial support, that, you know, if people wanted funding for scholarship or if they wanted funding for study leave, those were definitely at the lower end of, of the results and so fewer, of the participants were, were getting that kind of access to, to that, so to pursue their own scholarship studies or to, to take further courses that cost money.
So I don't think that's necessarily that surprising, but it's maybe good just to have that confirmed for us as well. People were very focused on quite practical development as well, stuff that was really relevant to what they were doing in the classroom. So they wanted to develop their, their, their teaching practices in that way.

And I think another sort of driver as well was the, the idea of community. So people were very keen to learn from each other and to talk to their peers and be part of, I think one person said, you know, having that sense of belonging to an academic community as well. So there was a sense of wanting to learn from each other.

[00:23:25] Michelle Evans: This really echoes with, with our key findings. So people were saying, I want to access literature first and foremost for, for teaching, for teaching, curriculum design, creating materials for assessment and feedback. That's my main priority. And there was definitely a sense of "I want to be part of this community",

"I want to keep up to date", "I need to know about the latest developments". There was a little bit of a sense of "I want to keep up with something that's happening over here", so there's this impression of "there's people doing great work over there and I want to be a part of it". So there was something about a little bit of center periphery. I'm not sure, but there was some message like that coming through, but people wanted to keep up to date. And it, the idea of things shifting and moving and changing and but the teaching, the teaching focus was there. 

[00:24:16] Yanhua Liu: I remember some of the more junior interview participants mentioned the perhaps that they want to have access to teaching demo videos, how these teachers actually do teaching in their practice. They want to have access to these video recordings as well as kind of a observers comments. This would be few would help them grow as a practitioner. This is something that strikes me because, as we mentioned earlier, we don't have a lot of less experienced EAP teachers and this participant could probably represent some of these less experienced practitioners in terms of their needs to grow.

[00:24:59] Lindsay Knox: I think what we noticed as well was that there was a big difference institutionally and independently. So the participants in our survey, we got a real sense of a community, if you like, of people who were quite happy to develop themselves without necessarily needing an institutional framework, whether or not there was one. So people, you know, were, taking a more scholarly approach, if you like, and they were, there was more evidence of scholarship within the, the answers to the question about what do you do by yourself. And so people were presenting at conferences, they were writing papers. That was quite striking. So a lot of agency, sometimes maybe pushed by the lack of an institutional framework, but definitely keen to take ownership of their own development. 

[00:25:45] Carole McDiarmid: Yeah, there was a, what do people focus on? Like Lindsay said, materials, teaching, practical things and, but there's less of a focus within frameworks on research methods, scholarship research, and there was very much a sense of an appetite for more of that. I think that's probably reflecting developments in, in the field of more people getting engaged, possibly more changes to contract types and more recognition of people doing research and scholarship within EAP. That will obviously be institution specific.

[00:26:14] Michelle Evans: I think that that kind of personal responsibility for us, one of our key themes was around kind of accountability, but also empowerment. So to have the confidence that what I'm teaching and how I'm teaching it is informed. I Can explain what I'm doing the way, the way that I'm doing it. That was definitely really clear. We did have some people saying that in some contexts, in some situations, they'd been discouraged from being too scholarly and kind of being a bit over the top and making a big deal out of, you know and yeah, kind of some people who were using references for their lesson planning and, you know, not being encouraged in the way that we might think that they would be.
That was quite interesting maybe signaling different expectations of what EAP practitioners are expected to do in different contexts. 

[00:27:06] Lindsay Knox: I think that was true for us as well. There was definitely in some answers a sense of not so much the the idea that they were being told off for doing it, but the idea that they themselves felt that they were a bit imposter -ish if they hadn't, you know, Based things on theory and if they hadn't gone in to look at you know, research bases to, to justify or to explain what they were doing. So I think that's quite interesting and it probably relates a bit, doesn't it, to discussion in our sector about where EAP sits in higher education. 

[00:27:38] Carole McDiarmid: And the role of the EAP lecturer or practitioner within the university, I think  that's becoming more established as,  this is my sense, I have to say, of  Lecturers on the same status as lecturers in other subjects.
 
[00:27:54] Yanhua Liu: Yeah, I want to add about our project in terms of the findings about EAP teachers access. I think the majority of the participants said they have good access, but it also emphasized the, the main access issues for these practitioners are the library doesn't have sufficient subscription to the literature the practitioners want to access. And most of them mentioned, you know, we also asked them, why do you think that's the case? And most of mentioned about it's a funding, you know, the university doesn't have funding for this kind of materials, journals, things that the teachers want to access the limited access in this area and IT infrastructure, etc. This could stop people from trying to develop their expertise in EAP.

[00:28:47] Michelle Evans: Yeah, there was a question "have you ever felt excluded by not having access to literature?" and some people said yes. And there were some differences in different contexts of some who, as Yanhua just said, who didn't have access to, you know the internet, for example. Not just having subscriptions in the library, but the digital infrastructure being in place.

And there were some important um, Differences in different contexts that came up. in the African context, for example in South Africa and Ghana were the ones who said that having that kind of infrastructure in place can be a problem. And I think in terms of, key messages although most people said, yes, I have access to a library, but the subscriptions might be a problem, I think we thought for BALEAP, if this is a BALEAP project, you know, for BALEAP in the community, it would be really good to acknowledge that, that internationally we're not on a level playing field when it comes to access to literature and, and, you know for CPD and other purposes. That was a big thing for us.

Our first kind of recommendation to BALEAP would be " can we please acknowledge this and talk about it as a community?" And, you know, think about what we can do. And there were a series of kind of 
suggestions and recommendations that that's been out forward.

[00:30:05] Carole McDiarmid: Even things like your report, though, and ours is going to be an open, the proceedings even for the first round of our findings are useful steps forward in contributions, at least people can read about some research. Maybe it's also, it might be part of your recommendations having a forum or a place which is these are open access journals or these are top open access repositories. Lots of journals will have something open access for a certain number of articles, would be important to give people access. I think that's in the whole general field of English language teaching. I've come across this before in IATEFL a long time ago. How do you, how do people get access?

[00:30:43] Michelle Evans: Yeah, that's definitely up there. The open access was really important for people. Grey literature, webinars, blogs were noted. Reading groups, you know, as well as relying on colleagues but definitely the BALEAP SIGs were mentioned. Some people couldn't afford, their institution didn't have a BALEAP membership, and they couldn't afford an individual membership, so that was a bit kind of closed for them. one of the things we thought was about support with subscriptions to BALEAP, but certainly the SIGs and BALEAP events and other events, webinars, blogs, were really valued. Yeah, and the whole question of how to help, for example, on pre sessional courses in the UK and of the context, you know, summer tutors who might come to do a pre session summer, how to help them to get access throughout the year, I think has been a bit of a discussion in some UK universities, certainly at Leeds and other places.

[00:31:34] Lindsay Knox: That was definitely something that came up in our survey as well, that when people talked about community, they were talking about BALEAP SIGs, but also outside BALEAP, other associations that they were members of as well. So I consolidating that so people know where these things are and how they can get to them is quite important.

[00:31:53] Yanhua Liu: Yeah, yeah, I agree. I also want to echo that point on the point of community. The SIGs, I think, I personally also participated in the SIGs, some of the SIGs. I find it interesting, you know, people gather together to discuss issues as well as sometimes even reading the same article. And this refers back to the point Michelle mentioned about reading groups. I have a strong impression of the point mentioned by at least two of the interview participants who mentioned they went to these reading clubs or circles in their own institution. So one of them mentioned about their department has an institutional kind of mechanism to set up reading groups. And and they also have a personal one, some individual members of the faculty would set up reading groups to to discuss articles regularly and this service as a kind of a momentum or motivation for them to keep on reading and discussing things that are important for their practice.

[00:33:01] Lindsay Knox: It's quite interesting. Just because it reminds me of one of the findings that we had which I'll just check that I've got the right information. So when we asked about institutional activity, so things that were organised for practitioners, one of the least popular options, so only 13 percent of people they might have been available, but they didn't actually join EAP reading groups or journal clubs or anything. So even though they were in a context where they did have access and quite a rich access to literature, it wasn't one of the things that they took advantage of, which I was curious about. I don't know that we arrived at a an understanding of that. 

[00:33:39] Yanhua Liu: Yeah, the participants are probably, located in China and one in the Caribbeans. So that's not UK based. I mean, whether it is a difference between this different context I know, but just 
background information. 

[00:33:54] Carole McDiarmid: Yeah, we haven't untangled that to know whether it's context specific. It's not part of our survey, but we certainly know from our SIG that if we have a reading group, once we find an open access journal, they're usually quite well attended.

[00:34:08] Michelle Evans: Definitely some key themes overlap there around institutional support, personal motivations and the role of community and things like that. So what's next for your project then? What, what do you want to do next and where can people find out more?

[00:34:25] Lindsay Knox: I think as Carol mentioned, we do want to kind of get back to it and look at, to see if there are those links and, and, you know, if, if there's a correlation or if there's any relationship between who's doing what and, you know, and if it relates to their experience, if it relates to their context. So I think there's a bit of work to, to go back to that.
But as always, it's just finding the time to do that and carving that out. And I mentioned earlier we we did present our preliminary findings at at the EAP conference Crete in April and those proceedings are very soon to be available, I think, and that will be an open access.

[00:35:04] Carole McDiarmid: It's open access. It's imminent. I've got the DOI today, I think. So, and we'll put that also on our webpages.

[00:35:13] Michelle Evans: With the BALEAP access to Literature study, that report I think we might have to create an executive summary as well, because it's quite a lengthy report, isn't it, Yanhua? So, we can, we can put that link and make that available, that'll be on the BALEAP website. Thank you again for joining me.
 
[00:35:30] Laura Richards: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of All Things EAP. We really hope you've enjoyed it and that you've found something interesting or useful in it. We really want to hear from you as well. So if you'd like to share a comment, suggestion or an insight into something that we've talked about on one of the episodes, please send us an email or voice note at podcast@baleap.org, but you can also get in touch through X, formerly known as Twitter and our YouTube channel, which are both @AllThingsEAP. Thank you again for listening, and we hope that you can join us for the next episode. 

Take care. Bye-bye.