00:00:00 - Johnny Sanders

I am now offering consultation services through Faithfully Engaged. If you're struggling to find a church, dealing with a destructive habit such as pornography, or trying to find a way to homeschool your kids but don't know where to start, come check me out. Go to faithfullyengaged.com/consulting to learn more information and to see how we can get started. Welcome back, everyone, to another episode of Faithfully Engaged. So today I am super excited to have back on the show Dr. Mark McNear. I was doing this with another interview. I believe that you are my third person to be on the show twice. I only have a very select few that have been good about that.

00:00:56 - Dr. Mark McNear

I definitely feel good about that.

00:00:58 - Johnny Sanders

Yes. So it's always fun, to get to see a familiar face. And today I have a very exciting announcement Doctor Mark was so very kind to give us a giveaway. So I actually have two copies here. Try to get it here in screen. Two copies of his book, Finding My Words, A Ruthless Commitment to Healing Gently After Trauma. And I have included in the link, wherever you're watching this, a sign-up for my substack, which is my email list. And I'm giving these two copies away to two random members on there. So if you've not already signed up for that, go ahead and do so. And I will announce that not this week's episode, but the following one on Friday. For those of you who have been watching, know that been doing solo episodes on Fridays. So I'll give you about a week and a half to sign up and then I'll announce it on that following faithful Friday there. So all that being said, Dr. Mark McNear, it's great to have you back on.
00:02:06 - Dr. Mark McNear
Thanks, Johnny. It's great to be with you.

00:02:08 - Johnny Sanders

Great. Well, I know that last time that we talked, we went through a lot of your book and kind of just the trauma you experienced and also your work, as a therapist working through trauma. So tell us a little bit today of kind of, some of those, some of these follow-ups that we wanted to talk about of how we respond once we really start getting into trauma work. That's a lot of tough work.

00:02:35 - Dr. Mark McNear

It is. And I am so excited to be doing it. I mean, we were talking before we went on just to help out how busy our practices are. And so, like we said, it's not great for society, but it's great that we can meet the needs of other people. And so my work has gone now toward working primarily with people who have been traumatized, people who have had abuse, had substance issues, had addictions, and other process addictions. And so one of the things that, and I'm going to be real honest with your audience, one of the things that drives me crazy is that a lot of times, people don't understand trauma work, and especially when we bring our faith into it, you know? And I noted to you that I had recently put something up on social media that talked about the fact that there's so much in the aftermath of traumas, issues of anxiety, issues of depression, issues of flashbacks, body reactions, things like that. And I had shared with you that somebody had responded, and I'm sure they meant really well with it, you know, but they responded and they said, you know if you would let the Holy Spirit touch you, all of that would go away. And, you know, it's a real passion of mine to help people who have had a lot of issues with trauma. But, you know, that type of teaching, you know, is just unhealthy and unhelpful to people because people who have had trauma carry so much shame with them, you know, what's the matter with me, you know, and so putting that on them and thinking that, you know, what's the matter, you know, Johnny, what's the matter with me? I have opened up to the Holy Spirit. I have asked Christ into my life. I am walking with the Lord, and still, I'm struggling with all of these trauma reactions or, you know, I'm struggling with depression or anxiety or flashbacks or I'm struggling with anger. I'm struggling with addictions, you know, what's the matter with me? And I would say there's nothing the matter with you. If you got hit by a car, you would have injuries and you would need treatment for those. And the same thing is true. We're called as believers to bear one another's burdens. And so I want to just be effective in doing that. I know you want to be effective in doing that. Understanding trauma better helps people not to carry the shame, not to carry the guilt of, you know, what's the matter with me? And also it helps us, you know, not to be so quick to give advice to others but to just be able to sit with people and sit with their pain and hear what their pain has to say.

00:05:34 - Johnny Sanders

I really want to hearken a little bit more on that last point. There is something that I talk often on here with just the audience that look, I hope anyways, that if you're listening to this, that you haven't experienced any type of traumatic past. Truly, I pray that most of you have not. But the reality is that if you have not experienced it yourself, you either knowingly or unknowingly know somebody who has that. That is about a guarantee that somebody around you has. And you may not know it, but you will run into this at some point. And what you just said there, I think, is a fundamental misunderstanding for anybody, but particularly in the church, because we know about God's grace, we know about the Holy Spirit, we know about that, the gift of salvation, all these great, great things that we should be talking about. But you ended there of not rushing to give that advice and to be able to listen, to hear, to understand why is that so important for people, listening to somebody's trauma or pain that they're having and not rushing to just give advice all of a sudden, you know?

00:06:51 - Dr. Mark McNear

You know, Peter Levine, one of the experts in trauma, and he does a lot with the body and bodywork, says that trauma is not what happened to us, but what we hold inside is in the absence of an empathetic witness. And so people who have had trauma and are carrying it around most likely have not had somebody come alongside them when that was going on. But the good news, it's not too late in that we can come alongside others and bear witness to their pain, bear witness to what they have gone through, you know, without judgment, without shame, you know, just hearing what the person has to say. And I think that Jesus was such a great model with that, of course, you know, in the way that he heard stories of other people, you know, and moved into their stories. And so, you know, I think at times in my own life, I have struggled with this, especially as a practitioner early on, you know, feeling anxious and wanting to rescue people out of their pain instead of just allowing people to share the pain. And for me to sit there in it, not giving advice, you know, not telling them what they need to do, but just connecting with them on a deeper level and hearing what they have to say and hearing the suffering that they have gone through. So I think it's so important. I think Peter Levine hits the nail on the head when he talks about, you know, that empathetic witness, that person that comes alongside and listens to the other person. And I think that's part of our job, right? That's what we do, is hopefully we're really good listeners. And so I want to encourage the audience, too. You know, you can't really listen when you're preparing what you're going to say next, you know? But if you're listening and really connecting with the individual and not having expectations of needing to fix them, not having expectations of what you're going to say next, but just sitting there. It's powerful. That attunement is really powerful for individuals.

00:09:03 - Johnny Sanders

You know, it's interesting, I'm thinking of a conversation I've had with my wife, and it being very similar to something that my, my pastors actually talked about, that when I'm talking about my wife, sometimes she'll ask me questions, not about, like, specific clients, you know, these confidentiality things, but like, hey, what do you do? Like, what, what does that look like? And, um, I tell her that a good chunk of what I do is listen. Just hear what they say, reflect back on what they're saying, and ask good questions. Like, of course, there may be sometimes I'll suggest something here and there, but listening is so powerful. Um, and I'm sure you've experienced this too, those sessions where you do such a majority of listening, and they walk out and, oh, man, I feel so much better. Somebody was there with me and my pastor was saying something in a very different context, but was talking about this was more of like an evangelism type of thing. But there's actually a lot of similarities there that I can't remember who he was speaking of. There's somebody, um, some evangelist or somebody he, he was talking about. And he was saying that that person, probably 75% of what they do is listen and ask questions. So even when you're sharing the gospel, um, being able to hear where they're coming from, asking them good questions, well, why do you feel this way? What's going on here? Even with the gospel? That's a good idea. So it's, I find God's truth that permeates in everything. So it's, yes, it works in the trauma side, as Christians may need to sit back and look at. Even with our evangelism and things of that nature, are we just saying stuff just so we're the good guys, or are we actually seeking people's hearts out? Because those are two different things.

00:10:56 - Dr. Mark McNear
Yeah. Are we looking for results or are we attuning to the individual and hearing what they have to say? You know, do we have an agenda?
00:11:06 - Johnny Sanders
Yeah, absolutely. And I think what you're saying specifically for somebody that's been experiencing some type of deep trauma, I would love for you to speak a little bit more into of the difference between somebody that had a, you know, a really bad situation that happened, but they had supportive, loving environment around them there. People were to walk with them as opposed to the lonely sufferer, somebody that's all by themselves. Why do they have such different outcomes if they don't have that, that support?

00:11:42 - Dr. Mark McNear

That's Johnny, that's such a great question. I look at the research that's been done, and they have done research with people that go to war. And, you know, a lot of people during wartime have suffered from addiction. When they're there, okay, they come home, and there has been a noticeable difference. There's a certain percentage of the population that just lets go of the addictions. And then there's another percentage of individuals who hold dearly onto the addiction and have a hard time letting go. The difference is their childhood, how they were raised, and whether they had stability, or whether they had a lot of trauma and a lot of dysregulation in their childhood. And so I think that's across the board. You know, when we have people to connect with us, we fare much greater than we're when we're, as you said, the lone sufferer, you know, the person that's alone, that has had nobody to talk to. You know, with addiction, we look at isolation as being such a toxic thing. But I don't think it's something that's new for the person that's in addiction. It compounds it, but it's something that I think the person is already used to because of having that background where they were isolated or they didn't connect or weren't connected to, I should say, by others, you know, their parents, siblings, things like that.

00:13:18 - Johnny Sanders

Yeah. And I think that really speaks highly to it. To God's design as well, that we are. We are social creatures. We're meant to have a loving, stable family around us, and it doesn't protect us from everything. That's so fascinating that you go. Go to war and come back, and that's such a tie-tying factor is your childhood that speaks so highly to that. And when somebody doesn't have that, they've had a very dysregulated childhood can certainly cause more of those issues.

00:13:54 - Dr. Mark McNear

So many times I've heard people say, ah, the past is the past, you know? But, you know, when you think about it with trauma, one of the things I stress in my book is the past is not the past. When it shows up in the present, you know, that's one thing. And the other thing is William Faulkner talked about the fact that there's no such thing as the past. The past is always here because we take it with us. You know, we can't erase it, you know? And so one of the things that we were, again, talking about before getting on. Getting on was that idea that Bessel van der Kolk talks about, the fact that trauma comes back as a reaction and not a memory. And so I see that so much with individuals. I see it in my own life with the trauma that I've had, but I also see it in individuals' lives. And I was. I was telling you a little case story of somebody I got permission to share. Share this story. A woman was telling me that she had a weekend where she was around this woman, an older woman, and she said that they went to a carnival, and they went with family. And so it was a really nice time, but she felt uncomfortable the whole time. Really, really uncomfortable. She felt bad because she said that she looked at this lady. This lady was really nice, but she didn't like her. She just had this instinct, you know, this wall that came up that she didn't like her, you know? And as it was explored, you know, she had said that after the weekend, she really thought about it, and she, like, realized the woman was wearing the same perfume that her mother wore, and her mother was very, very abusive to her in so many ways. So that's, you know, as a therapist, you know, being a good detective and being able to look at the clues and not just looking at the face value of something is really important, you know? And I want listeners to hear that, that it's really important when we've all had that experience where we are around somebody that we feel really uncomfortable being around. And then often, we'll shame ourselves and say, like, what's the matter with me? Why am I like this? But there's reasons for, you know, and that's a good example of the past is not the past. When it shows up in the present, something simple like perfume is profound.

00:16:15 - Johnny Sanders

And, you know, just on a personal note, not on the. Necessarily as on the trauma side, but just to show the. The importance of the senses in that way and how it ties memories, um, how we feel in the present. Like that, um, I had this ended up being more of a positive than a negative, um, but similar thing that being in Walmart. Um, and it was perfume. Um, smelled someone's perfume, like, whoa, what is this? And bam. Immediately was thinking of my grandma, who wore the same perfume. Um, now, thankfully for me, that was more of that positive memory. But that makes me think, as a therapist, when I hear somebody and they. They think of their grandma. And that was a very negative thing, that those senses tie you right back there. But the trauma is making that into a negative reaction there.

00:17:10 - Dr. Mark McNear

Yeah. What is it connected to? What is that smell connected to? Or what is that location connected to? What? What is that weather connected to? You know, sometimes people will say to me, like, when the fall comes, I struggle so much, and it'll end up being that that's when some abuse started, like sexual abuse or physical abuse started, you know? And so things like that are so common, but they're not obvious, you know, until they're explored.

00:17:41 - Johnny Sanders

That's a really good way you put that there. They're common, but they're not. They're not obvious. And that's something you and I do in counseling work, is to. I love how you put that, that detective work, asking those questions and trying to poke around a little bit, but for that individual, they just felt bad. I don't know what's going on. And.

00:18:03 - Dr. Mark McNear

Right.

00:18:04 - Johnny Sanders

That's why it's so important to explore these things. And that kind of leads me to this next question that I know. A lot of times I can even be disheartened at times when I see a client where, like, I see him once or twice and there's a lot of more work to be done, and then they just kind of fizzle out to maybe they get cold feet or something for maybe some of the people listening that maybe they've done that themselves or they know somebody like that that needs that ongoing treatment. What. What's some encouragement for somebody who's experienced this trauma and just needs that ongoing trauma treatment? Like, what can they do in those situations?

00:18:45 - Dr. Mark McNear

Well, I think it's important to realize it gets worse before it gets better, you know? And so sometimes, and I can tell you, in my own life, it got much worse before it got better, because, you know, I had done so much with addictions to cover up the pain, you know, that when I had to start dealing with memories, you know, traumatic memories of things that happened to me, and I started feeling them in my body, I just wanted to run away, you know? So I think one thing that's really helpful to consider. Rothschild talks about applying the brakes. And she's a therapist, a trauma therapist, and what she means by that is for the client not to rush into things. You know, I can remember, Johnny, when I was right after rehab. I was in counseling with a guy who was really trauma-informed, and we started delving into some of these really, really painful memories. And one of the things that I did when it got to be too much is I would just put my hand up, and that was my way of saying, like, enough. Don't want to go any further with this memory, you know? And so, you know, being trauma-informed to take it really slow with individuals, you know, we get so excited and we want to go, but we need to go at the pace of the person. And I think one thing that people share with me all the time, they'll come in and they'll be like, I am so anxious. I want to talk about these things, but my body is telling me no. And so usually what I'll do with them is I'll work on regulation with them. We'll work on tapping or we'll work on breathing. We'll work on, you know, because we don't want to rush into these stories without proper care to the body, you know. And so sometimes, and I've done this a million times, and, you know, I guess with experience now, I don't do it as much, but there's that desire of wanting to rush in, you know, instead of taking it really slow and saying, we need to care for your body, and we don't want to overwhelm the system, you know? So I know Bessel van der Kolk with the body keeps a score. He talks about throwing a beach ball back and forth in a session to help somebody, to regulate and connect. So getting creative with things, finding ways to relax the body. You know, I had a woman this week who was talking about a very, very difficult story, overwhelming. And she had written out maybe three paragraphs, and I had said to her, even if we get to two sentences if we stay regulated, we're doing really good work, you know? So I think that you know, setting up safety plans beforehand, like me putting my hand up, saying, that's enough, can't do any more today. And sometimes that was after 15 minutes. But that allowed me to build a foundation where I could go forward and talk about more things.

00:22:03 - Johnny Sanders

Yeah, absolutely. And this leads in well, and I think there's a lot of principles that can be taken from that, of being on. Okay, instead of being the more of the person that has experienced the trauma, maybe, the family member trying to help support, what can they be doing aside from, you know, just, just listening and things of that nature? Is there anything else that family members can do to help somebody that's experienced this trauma and, you know, they're struggling and, you know, you want to help? Is there anything else you would recommend for family members to do to help?

00:22:41 - Dr. Mark McNear

I think finding ways to regulate themselves, regulate their own bodies, things like that. You know, the last thing that we want to do as therapists is traumatize the client or re-traumatize the client by talking about things prematurely, you know, so I think even education for family members to know, not to rush in, not to shame, not to dive in, wait for the person to talk about these things, it's hard to do because we want to see loved ones get better, but it does take a lot of time. You know, I remember Johnnyny when I was in rehab, I had a really wise physician, and he said to me, you know, you've been through a lot and it's going to take you about ten years. And I was like, what? Ten years? But I'm coming up on my 10th year. And I could see the wisdom in that statement that it really took time for me to be able to integrate these things that happened to me when I was so young. And so I want listeners to hear that. It's not like you go into treatment. I don't want family members to think this. You go into treatment and, you know, a few months and everything's fine. It takes time. When there's been this much damage, you Know.

00:24:01 - Johnny Sanders

 with you saying those things, as far as just not rushing in, both as the person experiencing trauma and as the family member, it really hearkens back on the faith side that, look, God is the one that's in control, and there are times that we don't understand that. There are times that we don't know why things are going on, and it's hard, and that's fine to have that understanding, but it's showing that faith in God, that when I have to be patient towards my recovery, patient towards my family members recovery, I'm not the one 1000% in control. I need that trust and reliance on God through that, instead of just me pressing this easy button and it just goes away. And I'm interested to hear from you as well, like, bringing the faith component into this. How can, especially with a loved one who's hurting and hates to see their loved ones struggling like this, how can their faith in God help them through this process?

00:25:13 - Dr. Mark McNear

That's a great question, Johnny. I look at it and I can tell you from my own life, with my wife Debbie, my daughter Emily, and my son-in-law Brandon, they were extremely patient and watched it unfold. I think that my wife is someone who has great faith in Jesus and looked at it and said, this is Mark's journey. You know, it's her journey, too, but it's Mark's journey. And I felt the freedom to be able to. I'm really motivated and wanted to get better, you know, but it does take time, and it's so frustrating. And so it wasn't overnight. And so, you know, God looks at us and he's looking at us in light of eternity, you know, and it's not this quick microwave mentality of, you know, quick. We've got to get it done quickly. You know, he is in the process of sanctifying us. You know, I think of Philippians one six, and this is a verse that if I said it once, I said it a million times in the last ten years, be confident of this very thing, that he who has begun a good work in you, he will continue it until the day of Christ Jesus. And so I think that's a great verse for family members, and I think it's also a great verse for the person who is really dealing with trauma or addiction. And in recovery, it takes time. It takes a lot of time, and it takes a lot of energy. It takes a lot of treatment. It takes a lot of frustration tolerance building a frustration tolerance and, you know, being able to just widen that window of tolerance to be able to. To tolerate feelings in my body that I've never been able to tolerate before, you know, so as long as you think it's going to take, probably multiply that. I know that can be discouraging for people, but I want to be realistic. God is a kind God. I love the verse in Romans 2:4. It's the kindness of God that leads to change, and it's something that we can really, really hold onto. You know, Hebrews 4:15 talks about that. We don't have a savior that doesn't know what we're going through. A high priest, he's been through all of it and more and has come out on the other side. So we can rely on him. We can tell him anything, anything that we're feeling. We can invite him into these messy stories, and he's the one that restores. It's not us. It's him that brings the restoration.

00:27:51 - Johnny Sanders

I think that is wonderfully said, and it puts things in perspective. It's not all on me to fix every little thing in the world. I need to have that confidence in God, that he's got it. He's in control and he's got it. Even when I have doubts and concerns along the way, he can still take it. And I think that's really important, whether you're the one suffering or the family member suffering alongside, to keep all of that in mind. Well, I am, again, super glad that you were able to come back on. I know we really just scratched the surface. We can talk about trauma for years and years. So people that are listening to this and maybe they're interested in getting your book or just want to know more about you, be in contact with you. How can people be in contact with you and maybe get the book?

00:28:45 - Dr. Mark McNear

Sure.

00:28:45 - Johnny Sanders

Sure.

00:28:45 - Dr. Mark McNear

They can go on Google and just put in www.Markmcnear.com and my website will come up. Johnny. There's a place there where they can email me and then if they want the book, it's finding my words of ruthless commitment to healing gently after trauma. And that's on Amazon, so love for people to reach out and read it.

00:29:09 - Johnny Sanders

Fantastic. And I will remind you all again, please sign up for my Substack link that's down in the description. And two of you will be able to actually win the book. And definitely if you're not a winner, or even if you are a winner, think about purchasing the book. I read it myself. It is a, it's a. I've described it as an easy read, very much in the quotation Marks of physically being able to read the book like the words themselves. But the actual processing of it is deep, deep, deep, deep, heavy stuff. So it's a very slow read in that way to take your time. And definitely if you're somebody that's experienced trauma, just beware that it is a very deep, heavy book, but it is very well written. So I highly recommend it to anybody who's listening to this. All right, well, Dr. Mark McNear, again, great to have you on, and thank you again for your time.

00:30:10 - Dr. Mark McNear

Thanks, Johnny. Great being with you.

00:30:12 - Johnny Sanders

You bet. Thank you to all who were tuning in today and we will catch you on the next episode.