00:00:00 - Johnny Sanders Do you enjoy listening to podcasts and think, man, I would like to make my own podcast? This is where I found myself last year and I have learned a lot about what to do and a lot about what not to do. I'm offering consulting services to help you launch your podcast, especially if you're looking to make a more Christian or conservative podcast. To find out more information at faithfullyengaged.com I have a link down in the description below if you would like help on getting your podcast. Well, welcome back everyone, to another episode of Faithfully Engaged. As most of you know that have listened to the show for a while, I usually record these a little bit in the future, so I'm not sure when this will come out. But as of recording, this is the start of June and unless you've been under a rock for a while, you know that June is Pride month. And if you are a conservative Christian and take your faith seriously, you may have some issues with this month. And that's part of why I'm really excited to have my guest, Garry Ingraham on today. He's got a wonderful testimony and has a ministry that deals with issues such as this. So, Garry, it's great to have you on. Why don't you tell the audience just a little bit about yourself? 00:01:25 - Garry Ingraham Sure. Thanks for having me on, Johnny. I appreciate it. So my story is a very thumbnail sketch as I grew up in a Christian home in upstate New York, and from the time I can remember, I was in church with my family. But I also was, I struggled very early on with feeling like I didn't fit into the world of boys and would much rather be with girls and hang out with them. Some of that was due to just ridicule and some bullying that grew over time to become physical, but just a lot of rejection, lots of name-calling, just kind of a constant everyday thing at school, public school. And I just didn't really fit in even within my own family with my three older brothers. I have one older sister and my dad just really kind of left me to be raised by my mom at that time. My dad and I developed a really close relationship after probably my, when I was in my thirties, and late twenties, but really feeling outside of, kind of not feeling comfortable in my own skin. Basically, as a boy, I was also introduced to hardcore porn by some older neighborhood boys who thought that would be great fun when I was five or six years old and that had a big impact. And then also the sexual behavior, they were acting out as well. And just to what degree my mind goes black around the sexual acting out. So I don't know to what degree I was involved, but I was there at least. So those were some pretty early experiences that, frankly, I hear lots of people tell stories that are far, far more devastating and more continuous than some of the stuff I experienced. But it was enough to really create this sense of not fitting in again and feeling awkward in my own skin and also realizing around puberty or so that I was attracted in terms of pornography, attracted more toward men than women. And that was horrifying to me because I knew what the Bible said about that. And so that just kind of led me in this spree of prayer and thinking that God was going to change this. And of course, that didn't happen. And I just began to be angry and disenchanted with God. Had no adults that I could actually talk to or unpack any of this stuff with and no one that I could trust to do that. And went to Bible college thinking that that was going to be something that somehow, oh, if I dedicate my life to God, then he's going to take these. These feelings away. That didn't happen, naturally. And so eventually I got the boot from Bible college when I was 19, and they just. They felt like I might be suicidal. They didn't know what to do with me in regard to that. And probably five, or six months later, I found my first gay bar, and it was a whole new world to me. I never had had a drink in my life, never been in a bar in my life. And it felt euphoric when I first worked up the nerve, after weeks of having found the place to walk into it. It felt euphoric to feel like I finally belonged somewhere like I'm around all these people that feel the same way that I have felt for years. And now I don't have to pretend. I don't have to. I can find Mister Right and settle down, basically. And of course, very quickly after that, one relationship, or what I thought was going to be a relationship would start up, and I was dumped in two, three, four days. And then after that, jumping back into another so-called relationship, thinking or experience, just thinking that this is going to be the answer. And I learned very quickly and in a very hard way that the revolving door, I mean, in the heterosexual world, there's a terribly unhealthy revolving door of dating and all kinds of kind of craziness and giving ourselves away to people. But in the lgbt world, especially on the men's side, it is pretty crazy. So I wound up living in that space for quite a while. I eventually became a bartender at a gay club, just again fully embracing this identity. And then my book that's showing up over my shoulder here, Am I Gay? That book begins with the story of my parents' life but then ends with me coming to genuine faith at the age of 23 after I had felt like I destroyed my life, basically, and didn't know if God even wanted anything that was left to me. Well, he did. And that was the beginning of this new journey. Now, as someone who had. Who had the empowerment of God and the Holy Spirit living inside of me. And I wasn't just a religious kid that grew up in a Christian home that had prayed a prayer a bunch of times, trying to basically have fire insurance, you know. Now, it was something real and much more deep than that. 00:05:58 - Johnny Sanders You know, as you're saying that I've had recent conversations with other guests on the show and just conversations in church and everything. You mentioned fire insurance. Many who have grown up in church have heard something similar to that. Basically, we're trying to run away from the. From the bad. We don't want to go to hell. We don't want to be separated. Right. We don't want that. And to a degree, I mean, that. That's true. Like, we. 00:06:26 - Garry Ingraham That's a healthy motivation. Yeah, sure. 00:06:30 - Johnny Sanders But if that is it, it's kind of empty. It's not about what we're running away from, it's who we're running to. And that's right. Probably even more accurate, who's running to us? So kind of take us to that, you know, 23 or so age timeframe. What. What was going on about then? How did you come to this genuine faith? Was it a moment? Was it a series of events? 00:06:55 - Garry Ingraham Yeah, a great question. And so it was a moment for sure. It was. I was on the side of an interstate in Pennsylvania or New Jersey, and I was just having a meltdown. And I. My heart. I had hardened my heart so deeply. I mean, I hadn't shed tears in I don't know how long, but I just had a meltdown on the side of the well while I was driving first, listening to some new Christian music. And the Lord just opened up my heart to really begin to feel the pain, the loss, just the ways that I'd so badly damaged myself, defiled myself and others. And. And he really just, in a gentle way, just allowed me to start to connect with that in an emotional way. And finally, I realized, holy cow, I've got to get off the road here because I can. I'm crying so much, it's hard to see where I'm going. And I pulled over, and here is my salvation prayer. I'd prayed the neat little Romans road, and I'm not disparaging that. It's so important that we understand that we need a savior, that Jesus died for us, that, you know, that we are sinners apart from Jesus, and we desperately need him. But the. For all of sin had fallen short of the glory of God, for example. But I also needed the surrender. And so when I pulled over, that was my time of just saying, lord, I. Jesus, I have made a complete wreck of my life. I mean, I'm looking at it now. I'm in the prime of my life. I feel like an old man. My soul is rotting and decaying, and I don't. I don't even know how I can't repair any of this. I don't even know if you want what's left of me anymore, but if you do, you can have it. Boom. That was. I mean, that was the moment that I can. That was a defining moment up to that point. And since then, and it isn't, you know, I got into a whole bunch of mess after that, after a pretty lengthy honeymoon period, but. And after a failed marriage too. To a young woman that only lasted four years in total. And after that, I was so upset and angry with God for not healing our marriage and for not keeping us together, blaming him for everything. And that I went back into the LGBT world for a period of several years, but now it was a whole different experience, because now I actually am a new creation. Now I have the holy spirit living inside of me, and I'm living like my old self. So there was a whole other battle and level of misery that I never experienced just as a religious kid who knew I shouldn't be doing this but with no real witness of any. You know, I wasn't a new creation at that point earlier on, so, yeah, it was in. But in that first case, coming up to the point of genuine salvation at 23, I had. I had learned over time. I felt like over time God basically is. Is a slave master or an ogre that demands we love him like He's the great chess player, and he just moves the pawns around in the chessboard with no regard, you know, for us whatsoever, and he just demands that we love him. That's how I kind of grew up in a very rules-based do and don't scenario of a church background, which I think is pretty common, actually. And then secondarily. And so I really hated God for a good chunk of a number of years, and because I just felt like I can't begin to measure up to what you're calling me to. I'm sick of fighting this. And then so couple that, though, with me wondering, why aren't you just taking me out, God? Why aren't you killing me on my way home from the bars each night? You know, I never mistook his, his lack of judgment for approval, but that kind of put a question mark in my mind, like, oh, I thought God just delighted in cracking us upside the head, and yet he's being, where are you? You're being merciful. And then on top of that rotting and that decay that I talked about earlier, I think Paul talks about this in Romans 6. Not Romans 6:1 Corinthians 6:18, when he says to flee sexual immorality. Every other sin that a man commits or woman is outside the body, but the one who sins sexually sins against their own body. And I do believe that that's really describing something that happens to our soul, that sexual sin does a unique kind of damage. And I was living that out, you know, in spades. So it was, it was realizing, oh, what felt euphoric and what still felt like identity is not euphoric. It's anything but gay, frankly. And then also, God isn't. God doesn't seem to be the slave master I'm thinking that he is. And as I began to soften toward God, he really allowed this moment where I could see clearly, where I had some. Some sanity, uh, in my mind, and was able to really choose him and. And turn, you know, um, again, turn away from my own flesh, basically. 00:11:40 - Johnny Sanders I mean, just all sorts of incredible pieces of wisdom in there of what you shared. Um, I was going to share this earlier, that for the audience members there very well could be somebody listening here. That's like, exactly in Garry's shoes of, like, you. You were right in the mix of things. Maybe you grew up in church or whatever. 00:12:02 - Garry Ingraham I. 00:12:02 - Johnny Sanders That very well could be the case. But if that's not the case, if nobody here listening to this is in that, I about guarantee you that even more so that somebody listened to this, know somebody, um, that is either going through this or has a family member that has walked out of the church or whatever it may be. Um, like this is very, very pervasive. And I think something that you mentioned there of just God's. God's mercy. This is something that I think. I'm not just saying to the audience or Garry, but to myself, sometimes we as people that maybe you're straight, you have a good family. You don't struggle. No one in the family struggles with any homosexuality, LGBT stuff, or whatever that. And maybe you don't even mean to. But there could be an air of, like, well, I'm above that. You know, like, I. 00:12:54 - Garry Ingraham Right. 00:12:55 - Johnny Sanders I don't need as much of God's mercy, and that's simply not true. All of us are deserving of death. All of us have fallen short. And I think that's a good reminder for those of you that maybe don't relate to some of the things that Garry's sharing, that, again, you probably know somebody that's going through that. And two, none of us deserves God's mercy, but he still gives it. And that is incredible. 00:13:18 - Garry Ingraham Well, and, Johnny, one of the things you're mentioning, I just wanted to jump in and quickly say our ministry, Love and Truth Network is primarily geared toward walking with pastors and Christian leaders and equipping them not just on LGBT issues, but on the rampant hidden stage four cancer of sexual brokenness in the church. It is absolutely alive and well, sadly, amongst men, for sure, but also increasingly amongst women, even pornography addiction there. But in many, many issues in the pulpit when it comes to pornography and other forms of sexual sin and brokenness. So the reality is we are all sexual beings, and we are all made in the image of God, but we do not, because of the fall, we do not automatically know how to steward our sexuality. Well, just because we're attracted to the opposite sex. Well, that's great. Congratulations. You know, that's. That's wonderful. I'm glad that you don't wrestle with same-sex attraction or transgenderism or any of those things, but how are you truly stewarding your sexuality? How are you? How are you doing that in a way that really glorifies God, that glory? If you're a single man, a single woman, that glorifies others if you're married, how are you doing at really honoring your spouse in terms of not just your behavior, but also your thought life in regard to many things? So we all are in need of deeper healing and a better understanding of how to steward this unbelievably powerful gift of our sexuality. 00:14:43 - Johnny Sanders Fantastic point. And that is something that, unfortunately, the church is not immune, as you say, to any sexual misuse, abuse, whatever that it is. And you mentioned pornography. I mean, goodness, that is that one. I guarantee you, you either. You're the one dealing with it. Guarantee. I have listeners that are dealing with that, of course, absolutely know somebody. It is very, very rampant. So, yes, we all can use God's mercy and grace to be able to control those, as you say. And I love that you mentioned this. God's gift of sexuality. It is not a bad thing. It's how we use it. That. That is the sinful piece. 00:15:23 - Garry Ingraham Yes. 00:15:24 - Johnny Sanders So something that really kind of stuck out to me, too, just in your book title. I would go ahead and reread that Am I Gay? And then coming out of cultural Christianity and LGBTQ plus identity into authentic faith in Jesus. Yeah, the LGBTQ part. And, you know, that gets a lot of that attention. But I'm pretty curious about the cultural Christianity piece. I'm in Oklahoma. Cultural Christianity is a big piece of that. I know there are some benefits to that. But what in your life growing up in cultural Christianity, what were some of the kinds of issues of coming to authentic faith instead of just being in cultural Christianity? 00:16:07 - Garry Ingraham Well, some of it was that I mean, I thought I was a Christian. I thought I prayed the prayer, for crying out loud. I mean, what more? And I did it multiple times. You know, I was in a denomination that believed you're once and done, you know, and. But even there, I knew something was not taking. I mean, something. I can't possibly be wrestling with this stuff and really addicted to pornography and chronic masturbation and all these others and all this confusion going on in my mind. This doesn't seem to comport with what I understand Christianity to be. And so. But the confusion was, I mean, we were being taught all the time that you just kind of pray this prayer. And this isn't even about, my comment isn't even about whether someone believes in eternal security or believes that you can lose your salvation. The point is that I went through the motions of doing all the right things. And some I often equate it to. It was kind of like me rubbing the genie's lamp, wanting to get my three wishes. You know, I. I said the right words, but my heart was far from surrendering until 23. And again, I just thought I mean, God, where were you when this sexual abuse happened to me? When this early exposure to pornography, and where were you then? Did it even matter to you? Where are you with these things that I'm struggling with? Why are you not showing up when I'm praying night after night after night for you to take these things away? And I'm praying in agreement with what your word teaches, so where are you? And so over the course of time, a kid begins to become very discouraged when there are no adults who are shepherding his heart. I often talk about that now when I teach and preach and do ministry events. Is that so often this cultural Christianity that you asked about, that's in the subtitle. So much of it is about a form of behavior management, about do's and don'ts. And of course, that is part of what we need to know. But when a child's heart, when a young person's heart, or an adult's for that matter, is unshepherded, when there's no one really, and ideally fathers, when they're, when fathers are not dipping into those deep wells of their, their son’s and their daughter's hearts and drawing to the surface what's really going on there. That child, at a very early age begins to split off and begins to function outwardly as the dutiful little Christian because that's what's expected. But then parents have no idea what's going on in terms of this cultivation of what's happening at a heart level. And so I think that's a good description of kind of cultural Christianity having a form of the real thing, but it's actually not the real thing. My former pastor, actually, in the book, I think in the, in the forward, or maybe it's on the back even of the book, John Hawko, my former pastor, expressed that he was concerned that there are so many people within the church who have become inoculated to the gospel because again, they've embraced more of this form of Christianity, but not the relationship and not the surrender that's needed to really come into or under the authority of the Lord. 00:19:05 - Johnny Sanders Yeah, no, I think that's, that's a really good point. And that's particularly true if you live in a very Christianized, I mean, the country of United States is still very Christian, although we are losing certainly quite a bit of that, but certainly the dominant religion. And there are pockets of the country that have it more so. And again, there are a lot of benefits to that in society that I think the church has positively impacted cultures. 00:19:32 - Garry Ingraham That's right. 00:19:33 - Johnny Sanders That alone is not enough. It's not enough to just go to church. It's not enough to pray the sinner's prayer like you're saying, Garry, it's that surrender of your heart. It is absolutely necessary. The culture can't save you with that kind of, along the lines of culture, though, so mentioned earlier, you know, somebody here is either struggling with their sexual identity or whatever that may be, or, you know, somebody has a family member, or maybe you're a pastor or ministry leader and trying to shepherd a group of people or family with the pervasiveness of pride month, of just LGBTQ acceptance and things of that nature. What's your kind of advice, both just through your testimony and through your ministry and through scripture, to be able to guide and love and to stand up for truth in the culture while still caring for people's hearts and trying to shepherd them to Christ without just. I kind of see the. Get a picture of people just, you know, yelling insults at someone that's gay or transgender or whatever. Like, what? How can these leaders best shepherd people to the gospel? 00:20:47 - Garry Ingraham Yeah. Well, I'm reminded, when you asked that question, I'm reminded of a time that Melissa and I were, and it was probably about 13 or 14 years ago when we were still living in upstate New York before we moved to Phoenix, Arizona, in 2016, that we. We went to Albany because gay marriage was on the. Was on the legislative block, basically, and that was being considered, and we went up to basically share our story and explain it. I mean, the reality is marriage is something that God designed. Marriage. God is the author of Marriage, not the state. And God understood also that he created marriage in part for a lot of reasons, but in part, it's the only metaphor we have for Christ and the church as well. This union between one man and one woman, taking two aspects of the image of God, two different aspects of equal value of the image of God, and forming a one-flesh union that does not happen in two of the same gender partnership. So, anyway, we went up to speak biblically and lovingly on the topic. But frankly, I looked at Melissa and thought, I'd rather be and said, I would rather be on the other side of the hallway here with the LGBT people, because, frankly, many of the Christians were fine, but there were some of them that were just nasty and they were haughty, they were arrogant, they were snotty. And I was embarrassed, frankly, to even be alongside some of them. And on the other hand, you had some in the LGBT community that were just singing hymns. I mean, it was an irony to be. And my point in saying that is to say this, I oftentimes talk about the fact that we as Christians need to understand and we as pastors need to equip people that we’re shepherding. How do we as Christians stand against an ideology that is like a tsunami over our culture and is sweeping away not just adults but children as well, even more so? And how do we stand against that and speak truth regarding it, but do it in a way that is loving and gracious, where we are unbending in terms of what's true, but we can stand against ideology, but we really need to be. For people, we need to be not supportive of sin. I'm not saying that at all, quite to the contrary, actually. But we need to understand how do we connect with the hearts of men and women, of young people who are wrestling and struggling with all kinds of identity issues, who've been told over and over again and every media outlet that's out there that Christians hate you, that Christians think that they're better than you? Now, in some cases, yes, that's true. There's a self-righteousness issue in the church, and we always tend to hide our own sin and show it, shining a spotlight on the LGBT community or others, which is wickedness. We need to deal with our own junk so that we can see clearly, as Jesus said, taking that beam out of our own eye to see clearly how to help another. It's not that we are not supposed to help one another. It's not that, um. That we are not supposed to be equipped to walk with one another, but we are rather. But we are to deal with our own stuff first, to be able to be whole enough to really be a good offering and not just be the blind leading the blind, essentially. So I think that this idea of separating ideology from individuals and learning how to love, well, hurting and broken people, man, I was a mess. Many people, maybe even listening or watching this, would probably not have even wanted to deal with me back in the day, before I was married, before I had my boys, before I was involved in ministry, uh, when I was just a, uh, an emotional basket case, because I just didn't know how to kind of be. I was so unsettled, I was so uh broken, I was so broken in my own masculinity, and. And God's brought a ton of healing, but he's done it through the body of Christ. He's done it through the church. He's done it in the context of community. And that's where we always find healing. According to James, 5:16 is through confessing our sins and praying for one another that we might be healed. So, anyway, I just kind of rambled on there, but I would say that I think it's important that we learn how to separate those two things and stand against ideology and those encroaching forms of religion. Frankly, I believe that LGBT has become the new state-sponsored religion, and learn how to stand against that. But before people, the ones that are caught up in supporting that, even God calls us to do that. And God will make a way for the spirit to draw their hearts to people who love them and are willing to walk with them to Jesus. 00:25:27 - Johnny Sanders Absolutely. And I think one word that really comes to mind for ourselves as Christians, if you're going to be speaking out against ideologies, is humility. And as we talked about earlier, we. You listening to this, if you're a Christian, you're not better than anybody. None of us are deserving of anything. We. We are grateful for God's graciousness. And for his gift of salvation. That. Absolutely. We want to share that. But the second that it's. Well, I'm not like you guys. Like, we're. We're better than you. And just. I think that's another thing, too, that especially, you know, when you see things that come your way on social media, the news, or whatever. Um, yeah, there's a lot about ideology out there. You're right. Um, and we stand up against that. We stand for truth and be unashamed of that. But the second it becomes personal, it's me versus you. Um, you. You need. You need to humble yourself, and maybe that's just a fight that you don't need to be in. Maybe you need to. To get away from that fight. Um, but this is really important that you don't make yourself the victor. Um, and I'm going to beat this person down. Right. It doesn't matter if you won the argument or not yet. You already lost if you have that mentality. 00:26:48 - Garry Ingraham Yep. It's very, very true. Yeah, absolutely. And again, so much what I would say also is, if you want to be impactful in this culture, in this day and age, we need to be willing to share our own stories of the brokenness and the junk and the filth and the garbage that God has brought us out of. I don't care if it's an eating disorder, running to the pantry every time we are empty or feeling stressed or whatever, or the refrigerator or if it's a substance abuse of alcohol or drugs of some kind, or whether it is. And oftentimes it's dual. Oftentimes it's sexual brokenness and something else as well. But whatever the stuff is. There's a woman on our website who shares her testimony. Her name is Sherry, and she has one of the most powerful stories of someone who grew up in the church, got married right away, I think they had eight children, and they're dear friends to this day. But when she first met me, she definitely had that sense of, oh, my goodness, you poor broken thing. And saw herself so much above me. And of course, she was living in a way that was more congruent with the scriptures for sure. But she. Her testimony is that man, she lived because of shame driving her. She lived in a bubble of self-righteousness and really feeling like she was a little above the cross. And she never saw that. I mean, for decades, she and her husband were small-group leaders. They were leaders in this thing and that thing in the church and amazing people. But, man, she really came to a place of recognizing the brokenness that was in her life that Jesus revealed. And it was. It was freeing, you know? So even when we're laboring under self-righteousness, that is a miserable place to be as a Christian. 00:28:35 - Johnny Sanders Absolutely, it is. And, yeah, what a wonderful testimony there, too. I shared this multiple times on the show. Something I love that my church does is once a month they have a. We have a potluck, and one member shares their testimony. And we hear. We hear everything. We hear that I was saved at six and so grateful that God raised me in a good, godly Christian home. And sure, I had some struggles, ups and downs, but I'm so grateful that he saved me from some of these other things that could have been so grateful. 00:29:10 - Garry Ingraham Yep. 00:29:10 - Johnny Sanders And we get the. The opposite of, like, I was selling drugs and all these, like, you know, kind of the, uh, the really extreme type of testimonies. 00:29:20 - Garry Ingraham Right. 00:29:21 - Johnny Sanders They're all beautiful. Um, because that six year old or the 30 year old or. Yeah, they grew up in church, or if they grew up on the streets, God saved them. Um, and that is a beautiful thing. 00:29:32 - Garry Ingraham Yes. 00:29:33 - Johnny Sanders No matter what. 00:29:33 - Garry Ingraham Yes. 00:29:33 - Johnny Sanders So I. I think getting better at. Yeah. Sharing that testimony of what God has done for you, what he has saved you from that. Again, that humility. You're not the victor there. You didn't do anything. 00:29:48 - Garry Ingraham You just. 00:29:48 - Johnny Sanders You got a gift and. 00:29:50 - Garry Ingraham That's right. 00:29:50 - Johnny Sanders Culture needs to know that. 00:29:52 - Garry Ingraham Well. And, Johnny, a lot of times I hear from people saying, oh, you know, Garry, I hear a lot of broken stories and ones that are far more devastating than mine. Sexual abuse that happened to boys and girls, you know, on and on and on by their. By a parent or by somebody that should have been taking care of them or by a leader in the church or whatever. I hear those stories all the time, and they're tragic, but I hear from people on occasion, and I know a lot of them are out there that don't have, they didn't get involved in drugs, they didn't get involved in sex. They were virgins or maybe one mishap or whatever prior, but they really lived a pretty clean and decent life. And they feel like, oh, my testimony is so boring. I just want to say to anybody who is hearing my voice right now, if you feel that way, let me tell you, your testimony is a radical testimony in a sex-saturated and identity-confused culture. So you, if you have not gotten involved in all the junk, do not feel like, oh, I don't really have anything to share. Yes, you do. You have a powerful story to share, and people need to hear that. The key thing is, as Johnny's already said, too, is coupling the fact that you are, that that didn't happen to you. Maybe you didn't go down some of those. Those pathways that I and many others that you might know did. Still, having that attitude of humility and gratitude toward God still allows you to speak into someone's life. Like me, I needed men in my life who did not come out of the LGBT world. I needed guys that were willing to talk to me about their heterosexual porn addiction and just say, you know what? I don't know what it's like to deal with same-sex attraction, but I do know what it's like to wrestle with this thing. And the thing is, we all have a thing, right? None of us are squeaky clean. We all have these besetting sin pulls. But maybe it's not some of the stuff that's more fantastic or more provocative or whatever, but your story is important and it needs to be heard. And also, if you can maintain that humility, God can use you in anyone's life to walk with them and to show them the love of Christ in you for them that they need to see. 00:31:55 - Johnny Sanders Absolutely, 100%. Do not be ashamed of your testimony, because like you said, it's radical for everybody. We all know somebody that was, like, a really nice person, but they didn't know Christ, and that's a tragic tragedy. So, yeah, it doesn't matter if you were abused or, yeah, on the streets doing drugs or whatever, you being saved is a big deal. Do not be ashamed of that. Well, Garry, absolutely wonderful conversation. I know we just scratched the surface of really a lot of your story and kind of your ministry. So why don't you tell the audience a little bit about your ministry and how they can be in touch with you after the show airs? 00:32:36 - Garry Ingraham Sure. Yeah. Thanks, Johnny. So we also do a weekly podcast, and our podcast lasts about an hour or so, and we just do something very similar, hear testimony from our guest, and then we just have Q and A. It's very conversational, kind of a bit long form for an hour, maybe a little bit longer. And so people can get to that on all the major podcasts. You can also see the video if you go to loveandtruthnetwork.com, that's our website. And if you go to loveandtruthnetwork.com podcast, you'll get to the video and the audio version. Or again, you can listen to it on any of the majors, Spotify or Google or Apple or any of those. And then, and that's it's just Love and Truth Network podcast. And then my book, of course, is out. That's on Amazon. The title of the book is Am I Gay? I would encourage you, if you type that in, to also include at least my first name with two r's in it, G A R R Y. Otherwise it pulls up a bunch of crap on Amazon. But anyway, it's out there and available, and would love people to pick that up and read it. I tried to be incredibly raw and vulnerable without being overly descriptive and sliming anyone. So I really tried to live with the tension of those two things. I want to be really clear about the wrestling and the struggling and what the church did well and what the church didn't do so well to help pastors and leaders and others. And then I would just say, you know, we have lots of testimonies, long-form testimony on our website, my story, my wife's story, others that are out there as well. So a lot of resources on our website@loveandtruthnetwork.com. 00:34:05 - Johnny Sanders Excellent. And I'll include some links down there in the show notes so people will be able to get there quickly. And definitely encourage you to check out his book and check out the podcast and everything. Garry, once again, thank you so much for coming on with us today. 00:34:21 - Garry Ingraham That was great to be with you. Johnny. Thank you. 00:34:24 - Johnny Sanders Absolutely. And thank you to everybody who tuned in today and we'll catch you on the next episode.