**Jeremy West:** Welcome to *Conversations with Catalysts.* Today, I have with me Harpinder Singh. Welcome to the podcast, Harpinder.

**Harpinder Singh:** Thank you, Jeremy. Thank you for having me.

**Jeremy West:** Thank you. So, let's start off with this: Please give us a little bit of an overview. Who is Harpinder Singh, and how did you end up in the world of coaching?

**Harpinder Singh:** Look, I'm a property investment advisor and also a licensed estate agent. How I ended up in the property field was basically a little accidental because, when I was a student in Sydney, I bought a house which I later rented out. I found that there were a lot of things I missed when I thought of doing that investment and later realized that I made a lot of mistakes, which ended up losing a lot of money in that property. Although everyone thinks that property is something which gives you money all the time, it doesn't happen that way when you do it the wrong way. So, I started studying more about it so that, in the future, if I have to invest, I know what to consider and how to go about it. That led me to learn about property, the different aspects, the different strategies, how finances work, and what the good practices of property investment are. I started my journey again in 2015 and began buying properties again. When I had that experience, I was able to make money out of property. Then later, in 2020, I started coaching to teach other people what they should consider and how to go about doing it the right way so that they can be successful property investors.

**Jeremy West:** Excellent. So what made you decide to go ahead and branch out and start coaching other people on how to do this?

**Harpinder Singh:** Well, look, I started as an estate agent in 2010 and began a property management company. I started managing assets for other people, like their properties, and I found that most people were making the same mistakes I did when I bought my first property. The reason is that they also think that buying property and investing in property is a part-time job, but it requires full-time study to avoid doing it the wrong way. Most of my clients were doing it the wrong way. Those who were doing it wrong were just stuck with one or two properties, while those who did it right, took my advice, or got educated from different sources, were doing it right. Today, some people have 10 properties, 5 to 10 properties—that is considered to be a successful property investor. But there's a lot of study and a lot of work involved behind it, which normally people don't understand, and they miss out on that. They just get stuck with one or two properties. So, I thought, "This is what I should be doing." This is what I knew and was successful in, so I decided to guide other people into successful property investment.

**Jeremy West:** So it sounds to me like what happened was you made some mistakes when you first started in real estate investing, and then when you started working with other people who were just starting out in real estate investing, you noticed that they were making the same mistakes you made. So you thought, "There needs to be something that teaches these people so they can learn from my mistakes and become successful at this a lot quicker than I was." Is that right?

**Harpinder Singh:** Yes, yes. And I thought the interesting part was that the mistakes were very common, and they were something that could be avoided with a little education. It's not that you need a PhD degree for it, but just a little know-how on how things need to be done the right way so that, later on, you don't find that as a barrier to your growth in property investment.

**Jeremy West:** Excellent. So could you share with us one, two, or three of the most common mistakes that people make?

**Harpinder Singh:** Yes. I think the most common mistake is that people consider it a part-time thing. They don't see it as a full-time, passive-income-producing asset. They just think, "Okay, I have some extra income, so I'll just put it into some property, buy a property," and they don't consider what the basic requirements are when you start your property investment business. You need to structure it the right way. You have to take your finances the right way, and you have to consider it a long-term, income-producing asset rather than just a fixed deposit sort of thing. So the basic mistake people make is that they don't understand that property is going to give them passive income in the long run and what kind of targets they have to set up for it. To get those targets, you have to structure it the right way. That is the first mistake any investor makes. And this mostly happens because most people, what they do is either they are living in a small house, and as the family grows, they buy a bigger house and rent out their old house, or when they buy a property, they think, "Okay, just buying a property is what property investment means." But before that, there are a lot of other things that need to be considered, like how to structure it in a way that you're either putting it as a family trust or a partnership or single-person setup. Those are the things you have to consider in the beginning itself. Most people do it after they've bought one or two properties. Then they realize, "Oh, I did it the wrong way." And it's a bit too late after that because then you need to sell the property, or you have to pay the stamp duty again to transfer it into a new setup. That is one thing people don't do—they don't educate themselves before they start their property investment journey.

The second mistake they make is that they are too focused on, you know, because there's a lot of buzz in the market—"The property is growing here in Western Australia; you should buy here," or "You should buy in Perth or Brisbane; this is the place where it is growing." But if you see property investment as a long-term goal rather than a short-term gain, then property does not give you losses in the long term because there's regular growth all over Melbourne, like all over Australia. It will be growing. It's not that it will grow in one place and not in another place, but the focus should be on the property itself and the other factors, like what are the long-term prospects of the property, how can we get the maximum output from it, and make it a passive-income-producing asset, rather than just concentrating on the capital growth of the property.

The third mistake I would say is that they don't think about property as the more they focus on the capital growth of the property rather than how to manage it well so they can get a good return and use it as a passive-income-producing asset for retirement.

**Jeremy West:** Okay, great. So now when you say that one of the biggest mistakes is that people think of it as a part-time thing, or they just kind of buy that new, bigger house for their family and then rent out the old one, how much time per week would you say people should be spending on this if they want to make a serious passive income out of real estate investing?

**Harpinder Singh:** Look, it doesn't take too much time to understand all this, but you still need to understand things beforehand rather than just diving into it and then start understanding by making mistakes. Most people buy the property and then start understanding, "Oh, I did this wrong," or "I should have done it this way rather than that way," or "I should have structured it as a family trust instead of buying it as a partnership with my wife," or "I shouldn't have bought this kind of property; I should have bought a smaller property." So, the basic information has to be understood before you dive into buying the property. You have to study that before, and it doesn't take too long to understand, but you have to put in some time and effort. It's not like you have to do it on a weekly basis; it's more like you should be aware of the regular news, how the market is behaving, whether the market is stable, and how interest rates are going. That is the regular information you need to understand. It doesn't take too much time every week—maybe a couple of hours a week to understand how the market is behaving. And everyone is in the marketplace, so you can get that information while you're at a weekend barbecue or from friends and family. But the basic information is required before you dive into it because there are a lot of things to consider, and most people miss out. Even if you miss a couple of things, it can go wrong from the very beginning, which is very painful when you realize you've done it wrong and that is what is hindering your growth at a later stage.

**Jeremy West:** Okay, so let me understand this a little bit better. The first thing you said was that the first mistake people make is that they look at it as a part-time thing. But you're not saying that this has to become your full-time job; you're just saying that you really need to do the work to educate yourself before you jump in and put your money into such a large purchase. You need to know what you're doing so that you set things up correctly from the beginning. Is that right?

**Harpinder Singh:** Yes. By part-time, I mean they don't give it the focus that property investment should be given. That is what I meant by part-time. The focus should be on offsetting your current income with passive income coming through property. So, if you have to do that, then you need to focus on the important things in the beginning and during your property investment as well. It doesn't require too much time to be

 a full-time job, but it does need to be done the proper way. Timing is very important. Sometimes the market is really going down, and people are scared to enter the market. If you don't know how real estate works, then that is actually the time to buy property, rather than when some people sell at that time. Those kinds of things need to be considered. It doesn't take too long, but it needs to be on a full-time basis, meaning you are in the market all the time, so you know what is happening, what changes are happening, and what has resulted in these outcomes. For example, now the market is pretty stable because interest rates are going up. If you're not aware of that, then obviously, when something like this happens next time, you won't understand how the cycles are changing in the property market. If you understand in this cycle how property cycles work and study previous cycles, you'll be able to anticipate that if the news is saying interest rates are going to go up, the market is definitely going to stabilize. But if you are not aware of that, then you will probably miss it. Secondly, when everyone is selling, that's the time to buy. Most investors don't understand that; they get scared when everyone is selling, thinking the market will go down. It doesn't happen that way if you've studied the market over the last 30 years and how it has behaved in the past. You'll see that this is something temporary, and the market will go up eventually. It is just a temporary phase, and this is a time when you should be holding on to your properties rather than getting scared and selling them off because everyone is saying the property market is going to fall. That is the kind of information and research you should be doing on a continuous basis.

**Jeremy West:** Okay. So, this is what happened in the past; this is what we're doing; this is what is going to be a temporary phase for some time; how long it's going to take, and all those factors play a part. Also, how do you do your numbers? The basic part is if you don't know your numbers and some people get scared that interest rates are going up and may reach up to 10 percent or something like that, and then you don't know how to handle those things, that is where you lose. That's when your education and knowledge come into play. These temporary phases are not going to be continuous; they are for some time, and then it will definitely stabilize again. So those are the things you have to understand. It doesn't take too much time, but it does need regular updates on what the market is saying.

**Harpinder Singh:** Yes. So it's about taking this passive income that you're building for retirement seriously. Obviously, in the first place, you're putting down quite an investment, so it's about taking it seriously, giving it the time and attention it needs, educating yourself ahead of time, and continually keeping yourself up to date. It sounds like taking it seriously and giving it the attention it deserves is what a lot of people don't do.

**Jeremy West:** Yes, I think that is the major problem. Because property is not something that needs a lot of time from you, apart from regular maintenance and checks, but how the market is going to behave in the future and what factors are going to change those market conditions—if you are able to read them in advance, you can prepare for any changes happening in the market so you don't end up messing up the whole thing. Basically, you have a mortgage and have to pay the bank, and then you are charging your tenants on that. If you are not able to read the market and understand how it will behave in the next six months, then that's where you mess things up.

**Jeremy West:** Okay, thank you. Yes, so take it seriously and educate yourself. And obviously, if you can have someone like Harpinder on your side who has been through it and made the mistakes, you can learn from his mistakes instead of making those costly mistakes on your own, and you'll be way ahead of where you would be.

**Jeremy West:** So could you share with us a success story where your coaching made a significant difference—someone you helped along this journey?

**Harpinder Singh:** Yep. I have a gentleman; he's an immigrant—without using his real name, I'm just giving you his background—he works in the IT industry. As I told you, he bought a property for himself, moved into a bigger house, and then rented his old property, thinking that this rental income would offset the property payments, so he could have some extra income. But it doesn't happen that way, because when you start getting income from the property, you start paying income tax on it, and at the end of the day, it wasn't a worthwhile exercise for him. He was in a very high tax bracket, paying 45 percent of the rental income towards taxes, so he wasn't getting much out of it. When he came to me, I explained that the basic idea behind property investment is that if you're paying too much tax, we have to offset the tax to generate some income as well, plus you offset your tax bill by paying off your property using the tax you are paying to the government. We helped him sell that property and buy two properties instead, which helped him offset a big chunk of his tax bill through depreciation from his investment properties. At the same time, he was able to gain some equity and start investing in multiple properties. We also keep him updated with news articles worth reading every now and then. Now he's really confident; he has four properties at the moment and is getting the same kind of results he was getting from one property, which he had paid off using his income and savings. Now he has four properties that are giving him four times the capital growth he was getting from one property. That's the kind of confidence he gets from the information we keep sending him. We don't just send news articles; we also give him information from the past—what has happened before. When interest rates started going up, he was very scared, thinking, "Okay, I have four properties, and now that interest is going up, I have to start paying too much interest." But we refinanced those properties to get some cash out so he would have some extra money to pay off the extra interest. By the time interest rates start going down, he will be okay with things. That kind of information we give him in advance because we knew that interest rates were going up to six or seven percent. This is what we understood from internal information from the banks, which we passed on to him, and he was confident that even if it goes to seven percent, he would still be able to pay off his installments on the properties. On top of that, we also helped him raise the rent on his properties because, seeing the demand in the market, we had to change one of his renters to increase his rent return so he could pay that. This was all done because we were proactive in approaching where the market was going to go and what kind of installments he had to pay. We calculated all the numbers, saw how much surplus income he had, and figured out how he could hold on to those properties rather than selling one of them because he thought he wouldn't be able to hold onto it. But after running all the numbers and figuring out how much rent change we needed for each property to cope with the seven percent interest rate, that helped us save his property. He was more inclined to sell one of his properties to release some equity into his account so he could keep paying for the other properties. That kind of information, if you have it in advance and know your figures, gives you the confidence that you can run through this hard phase of the property market.

**Jeremy West:** Yeah, it sounds like it's really good to have an expert on your side. If he was doing things on his own, he probably would have just had that one property and wouldn't have quadrupled his passive income for the future. Secondly, even if he had the four properties, he would have panicked and sold one of them. But by having you guys as experts on his side, he's been able to grow to four properties. I assume that over time, he'll continue growing. Is that what you expect?

**Harpinder Singh:** Yeah, look, whatever you're doing, I think you should have someone on your side to give you that support. Otherwise, if you're by yourself, you don't know what to do; you get scared when the situation changes, and then you make wrong decisions in that environment of fear and all that. Everyone is saying interest rates are going up, you won't be able to afford your property. But if you have someone on your side who says, "No, mate, let's sit down, do the numbers, see what we have, what we can do, and what changes we can bring in," then you don't need to sell the property in this situation. If, at the end of the day, we have to do something, then we had to, but first of all, we run the numbers, see where we sit, where we are heading, what the worst-case scenario is, and how we can overcome that situation with the best possible outcomes. That is only helpful if you know it yourself or have someone on your side who knows it and can guide you through it.

**Jeremy West:** Yeah. I mean, I find that even if you are an expert in an area, it still helps to have another expert on your side. The way the human mind works, once you lock into a certain mindset—for example, the fear of not being able to pay the mortgage for all four properties—even if you have the knowledge in your head, you lock into that fear and can't see it another way until you have a talk with someone else who understands and reminds you of things you might have already known. So getting the education in the first place is important, but even once you have it, it's still good to have people

 on your side who are at least as educated as you.

**Harpinder Singh:** Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think in any field of your life, if you have someone on your side who's a positive person who says, "Okay, mate, you can do it," even if you have to run and jump over a ditch or something, you can do it if a friend of yours says, "You can do it." But if someone says, "Oh, mate, this is too hard for you," then you start thinking, "Maybe I can't do it." Your mind works that way. If you have someone supportive on your side, you can go through something you haven't even dreamt of doing, but if someone says, "Oh, you can't do it," you start thinking, "Maybe I can't do it."

**Jeremy West:** Excellent. That is the mindset thing that works, basically.

**Harpinder Singh:** Yeah, 100%.

**Jeremy West:** Can you share with us one piece of wisdom in this area of real estate investing that you find yourself sharing with people—sort of anybody who will listen?

**Harpinder Singh:** Yeah, I would say the most important component is that you should have the knowledge yourself; don't rely on anyone else's knowledge and advice alone. Don't have blind faith in anyone. The most important part is that you should know how things work, and then you can have someone on your side who can fine-tune things. But if you rely solely on one person to get you results, you're going in the wrong direction because everyone has their own situation, mindset, family situation, and finances. You have to learn things yourself and work them out according to your situation. Having an expert on your side is beneficial because you can't go into every detail, but if you know the basic formula, the basic outline, then an expert will guide you better. Otherwise, you're relying on someone who doesn't even know what exactly you're looking for. So, yeah, my advice: educate yourself first, and then have an expert on your side who can guide you on every angle. There are a lot of small things to look at, but if you don't know the basics, people can misguide you on certain things and take advantage of your situation.

**Jeremy West:** Excellent. So what would you say, Harpinder, is the real end result that clients get from working with you?

**Harpinder Singh:** Look, the end result is that if you have targets in place, you have to have a plan in place as well. My basic focus is to have a plan that will get you to your targets. You can plan, "Okay, in the next 10 years, I need to get 10 properties" or whatever number you're thinking of, or "I need to offset my current income." Say you have $10,000 coming in, and you want to offset that; that is your target. To achieve that, we need a plan, and that is where my expertise comes in—creating that plan. We determine which properties should be in the first phase of your buying cycle, what kind of properties you should buy in the second cycle, and then what KPIs we need to set up. How much capital growth are we going to get from them? What kind of rental return are we going to get from them? We set up KPIs and all that stuff so that at every interval, you know you are going in the right direction or if you've made mistakes that should be rectified sooner rather than later. If you don't have a plan in place, that isn't going to lead you anywhere. That is one thing I specialize in: having a plan in place that you can follow and reach your goals. Every year, you set up your KPIs so you know you are on the right track. That is where I come into play: setting up a plan, following it up, reviewing the plan every year, and reaching where you want to be in five to ten years—what exactly you want to achieve out of it.

**Jeremy West:** And for most people, do you find that the end result they're wanting to achieve is a secure retirement?

**Harpinder Singh:** Look, for most people, that is the end goal, but they don't realize it at first. They think buying a property is their end goal, right? They don't realize that the end goal is to have passive income through property by the time they retire. I think property is the best and easiest way to achieve that, where you get both capital growth and passive income. But they don't realize it. They think, because there's a lot of buzz in the market, "Everyone says, okay, buy a property here, and I'll get you so much capital growth," and that becomes their focus. But the main focus should be on creating passive income through property, which will eventually give you a sense of security at the end of the day.

**Jeremy West:** Okay. So it sounds like what you do is help them formulate a good plan so that they aren't just going in a haphazard way. You help them fine-tune that plan as they go and keep them on track. The end result is financial security, whether it's long before they retire or at retirement, but that financial security is the end result they get from working with you.

**Harpinder Singh:** Yes, and that is what they should be focusing on as well. Most property investors focus on the property itself—how much money they are going to make when they sell it in two or three years' time. But that shouldn't be the focus. The focus should be on the end results you want to achieve from investing in property. Is it the money you are going to get out of it, or is it the passive income? They have that in the back of their minds—that this is what they want from their property investment—but because of the buzz in the market and a lot of noise, they think, "If I buy a property, I have to sell it to make money," but that isn't the case. You don't need to sell the property. The main thing is that you have to create passive income through property.

**Jeremy West:** Yeah, and that's where your expertise comes into play.

**Harpinder Singh:** Yes.

**Jeremy West:** Excellent. My two final questions are just to make sure that we've covered everything we need to cover today. So if your answer to either of these questions is no, that's fine. But if you have an answer to either of them, that's great too. I'll make it a two-part question. Is there anything you didn't get to say as much as you wanted to? Anything we talked about where you didn't get to say as much as you wanted because we went off on a tangent? Or is there anything that, since I've only known you a short time, Harpinder, is there anything that I didn't even know to bring up that would be a glaring omission in a survey of the life and work of Harpinder Singh?

**Harpinder Singh:** Yeah, I think the major thing I missed is that when we are talking about the money component—and most people miss this when they are doing investments, whether it's in real estate or any other investment—they don't tend to know the numbers the way they should. They leave it to their accountants or bookkeepers. When you don't know how much you're saving each month, how much you're spending on what components—how much you're paying for bills, your mortgage, groceries, dinners, even cigarettes, or coffee—you don't know those figures. That is the basic component, the starting point of your investment journey, knowing where you are spending your money, where you should be saving, and where you should just be spoiling your money. You shouldn't be spoiling money on things you should be avoiding to get that money into your investment journey. That is the first thing I teach my clients—start recording all your numbers yourself and see where you are spoiling money. For example, if this month you start recording your numbers, by the end of the month, you may realize, "Okay, I spent too much money on cigarettes; maybe I should avoid this and reduce that amount," or "I shouldn't be eating out so much because I'm spending too much money eating out," or whatever component you think you're spending the most money on and can save that money. I think that is a major component. Most of the people I see who are successful have control over their expenditures and know where their money is going. That is the basic foundation of your property investment journey, and that is where I would say anyone who wants to start their journey should begin—the first chapter of their education journey is learning how to control their finances themselves, rather than leaving it to their accountant.

**Jeremy West:** So the journey starts with knowing how you're spending your money now and seeing where some of that money that you're just spoiling, as you say, could be going towards that financial security in the future. The result at the end of the journey is that financial security and passive income in retirement, and you are able to help people move from that beginning stage through to the end stage. Is that right?

**Harpinder Singh:** Yes, yes. Before I would say anything else, if I don't know what I have in my hand to spend, then I won't be able to do it.

**Jeremy West:** A hundred percent. Alright. Is there anything else you wanted to share, Harpinder, before I get you to tell people how they can find you?

**Harpinder Singh:** I would say, if you're going into property investment and you want to really succeed in this arena—want to have five or six properties by the time you retire, or have 10 properties to offset your current income and have passive income to live on—then the best thing is to have somebody on your side who can guide you and keep you motivated through your journey, instead of hitting here and there and making losses while doing the work yourself. You should have someone you really trust who has that knowledge. If you want to start that journey, it does cost a little bit, but at the end of the day, it's worth it. It pays off more than what it costs. It's an investment. Most people think, "I can do this myself," and they try to grab information from here and there—uncooked information—and they try to do it themselves with that uncooked information, but they still end up doing it the wrong way.

**Jeremy West:** It sounds like those mistakes end up costing a lot more than it costs to have someone walk alongside you who already has the knowledge and has already made the mistakes.

**Harpinder Singh:** Yeah, definitely. That's the main thing—you don't realize it until it's too late. If you had someone on your side, you would have avoided those mistakes. Because in your investment journey, you don't have too many years—you can't buy 10 properties in one go; you have to buy them one by one over time. You only have 15 to 20 years if you start at the right stage—maybe at 35 or 40—you have 15 to 20 years to complete the whole process. If you spend five or six years trying to understand it and lose that timeframe, your time to generate that passive income for retirement is shortened, and then you've missed the bus, basically. If you're doing it, you have to start the right way, with the right support and help. If you do it that way, you can—I've seen people who have retired in their forties, even, from property.

**Jeremy West:** Yeah, well, I can see two types of people who would really benefit from having a coach in this area: those who would do it themselves and end up wasting a lot more money than they would have paid for the expert in the first place, and those who wouldn't end up doing it themselves because they think it's all too hard. They can't figure it out, so they just leave their money in their bank account or whatever. For those people who are interested in investing in real estate but think it's too hard, if they just had someone to hold their hand, walk them through the process of learning what they need to learn, and then go for that long-term security, I can see both types of people benefiting from what you do.

**Harpinder Singh:** Yeah, definitely. Basically, having an expert on your side is like having someone who's going to motivate you as a mentor. This is not just a service; it's a mentoring thing. Once you've bought two or three properties, you gain confidence, and then you start doing it yourself. You understand what is happening, how the market behaves—you've gone through a few cycles of the property market—and then you know what is happening. Things become totally different. I've seen people improve their intelligence in property. Once they've done a couple of properties and gained confidence, they realize, "Okay, this is something we can do. There's no big deal in this, and we can do it." But taking the first step—buying the first property, especially the first two or three properties—is a bit hard. Once they go beyond two or three properties, they start getting that fear: "Will I be able to support this? Because if something goes wrong—if I lose a tenant, for example, or something happens to the property and I can't rent it out for two or three months—then what will happen?" Those kinds of questions start coming up, and you lose confidence to grow further. Then you start paying off the properties, thinking that maybe two properties will eventually give you some passive income for retirement, and that will be enough. But if you really want to have a good income and a big portfolio to support that income, then having someone on your side is a very good idea to gain that confidence and have somebody guide you every step of the way so you can reach your goals in time.

**Jeremy West:** Excellent. Well, for those people listening who are thinking, "Hey, I really need Harpinder on my side to get me going," or maybe they've already made a few mistakes and want to stop making those mistakes and start doing it the right way, how would they find you, Harpinder?

**Harpinder Singh:** They can find me on my website, Investors Institute Melbourne, or my phone number is on the website—investorsinstitutemelbourne.com—or they can find me on my Facebook page or LinkedIn profile, or call me at 0450 017 018. I'm most welcome for a free strategy call—one hour. I'll show them how things work. If they want to do it themselves, they are most welcome to go ahead and do it. If they want my help, I'm happy to hold their hand at any time.

**Jeremy West:** Fantastic. Thank you, Harpinder. If anyone needs to find me, you can find me at jeremywest.net. I'm a mindfulness coach, and I have an eight-week mindfulness course coming up, so keep your eye on jeremywest.net to see that. That's it. Thank you very much for coming on, Harpinder, and we will talk to you again soon.

**Harpinder Singh:** Yeah, thank you, Jeremy. Thank you so much for that.

**Jeremy West:** Thank you. Bye-bye.

**Harpinder Singh:** Thanks. Bye.