00;00;04;13 - 00;00;33;23 Amanda Welcome to the podcast hosted by the Association for Women in Cryptocurrency, sponsored by Bracewell LLP. Bracewell is a leading lawyer and government relations firm whose award winning teams lead the market in cutting edge transactions and litigation, regulatory matters and government relations. You can learn more at bracewell.com. Today's topic is national advocacy efforts in crypto. Anything and everything you would want to know about crypto advocacy efforts at the national and state level, and why they're critically important. 00;00;33;25 - 00;00;55;13 Amanda The Association for Women in Cryptocurrency is a global, professional network of women and supportive allies around the world who advocate for the equitable inclusion of women in the future of digital finance, blockchain technology and Web3. The views of the speakers are their own and do not necessarily represent those of their employers. Association, it sponsors, or its board of directors. 00;00;55;20 - 00;01;27;17 Amanda This podcast is our opportunity to showcase the incredible work being done by our members around the world in the crypto, blockchain and Web3 industries. I'm your host, Amanda Wick, founder and CEO of the Association for Women in Cryptocurrency, and I'm incredibly excited to introduce you to today's guests, Kristina Howard and Stephanie Murphy. Kristina Howard is an executive vice president and head of public affairs at the end Group, a multi-state public affairs and government relations firm where she advises and represents clients across diverse industries, including the NFT space. 00;01;27;20 - 00;01;57;29 Amanda She specializes in helping startups in highly regulated industries develop proactive strategies to navigate the political landscape, mitigate regulatory risks, and capitalize on public sector partnership opportunities. Before joining Arxan, Kristina was an executive vice president at Tusk Strategies. She led multi-state public affairs campaigns on various federal, state, and local policy issues. Before that, she was a member of the Public Policy and state attorneys general practices at Kozan, O'Connor, and Orrick, Herrington, and Sutcliffe. 00;01;58;01 - 00;02;22;25 Amanda Kristina recently spoke at NFT NYC 2024 about the risks and opportunities for the NFT industry in the States. She's a former advisory board member of NFTs San Francisco and a proud member of the Association for Women in Cryptocurrency. Stephanie Murphy is a businesswoman, policy expert and former U.S. congresswoman. She made history as the first Vietnamese-American woman ever elected to the U.S. Congress in 2016. 00;02;23;02 - 00;02;46;22 Amanda Murphy was known as an effective legislator, cutting through Partizan gridlock to establish an exceptional record of legislative success. She led on trade and national security issues and played a key role in the historic investments in infrastructure and climate change. Prior to Congress, Murphy was an executive at an investment firm and an instructor of finance at Rollins College, where she helped launch the social entrepreneurship program on campus. 00;02;46;24 - 00;03;09;12 Amanda Murphy also served as a national security specialist at the U.S. Department of Defense, where she received numerous awards for her service, including the Secretary of Defense Medal for Exceptional Civilian Service. Currently, Murphy serves on the Advisory boards of Coinbase and Altria. Murphy also serves as a National Security Advisory Board member for the Rand Corporation and the co-chair of the U.S. Global Leadership Coalition. 00;03;09;14 - 00;03;34;26 Amanda Additionally, she's a highly sought after keynote speaker on economic and policy issues for business conferences and a contributor on major news networks including Bloomberg, BBC, and CNN. With those incredibly impressive background, Stephanie. Kristina, it's truly an honor and pleasure to have you both on to discuss such a critical topic, especially during a presidential election year. And that is the national advocacy efforts in crypto that are happening at both the state and federal levels. 00;03;34;28 - 00;03;45;06 Amanda Kristina, I'd like to start with you and your impressive background in grassroots education and advocacy. Can you just start with how did you get into Web3 and what kind of work have you been doing in the space? 00;03;45;09 - 00;04;27;17 Kristina Sure. Thank you so much, Amanda, for having me on this podcast, and it's an honor to be speaking to Stephanie, so I appreciate it. I've spent most of my career at the intersection of public policy, technology and regulation at the state level, helping companies in highly regulated industries overcome regulatory challenges. And a lot of that is working with government and working around government and working in the States is challenging because every state is unique with different processes and timelines and political environments and you also have to work with folks on the ground, and you're working with a lot of lobbyists and public relations and grassroots experts on the ground in state capitals. 00;04;27;19 - 00;04;54;06 Kristina I think working in the web three space for about four years, really concentrating on NFTs. I find it really interesting. We do a lot of education and advocacy at my firm, and I think there's so much education that needs to be done in this space, justice typically at the state level. Just because I think a lot of state legislators are overworked and overwhelmed, and they are dealing with a lot of issues, and we can't expect them to be experts on this. 00;04;54;07 - 00;05;00;03 Kristina And so it's so important, I think, that we take the time to educate them as they develop policies. 00;05;00;05 - 00;05;15;02 Amanda Stephanie, I do want to turn to you. And I have to admit it is it is difficult to not call you Miss Murphy, but you gave us permission. And so I'm going to practice. But you previously served as a congresswoman from the state of Florida, and now you're in the private sector, notably serving on the Coinbase Global advisory Board. 00;05;15;03 - 00;05;21;25 Amanda Can you tell us what kind of work that entails? And I'm curious if it kind of dovetails with your extensive national security background. 00;05;21;28 - 00;05;41;00 Stephanie Yes. Well, first, let me just say I'm so excited to be on this podcast with you and Kristina, and it's really nice to be on a panel with women, because how many times have we showed up at a conference and and seen just mammals? So really great to be here with you all. I am really proud to be a part of the Coinbase Global Advisory Board. 00;05;41;06 - 00;06;07;14 Stephanie As your listeners know, Coinbase is the largest and most trusted US based crypto exchange. What I really love about working with the organization is that they have been committed from day one to compliance, and they understand that in order to advance crypto, there has to be fair policy and clear regulations. And so it's it's been great to see them take an active role in trying to ensure that that exists for the sector. 00;06;07;14 - 00;06;41;02 Stephanie And for me, I get to draw on my time as a legislator in Congress, as well as like business experience and even teaching finance at the local liberal arts school, where back in 2015 and 2016, my students would ask me, so should I invest in crypto? And I was like, I'm here to teach you net present value, not to give you investment advice, but drawing on that and also drawing on my national security experience, I worked at the Department of Defense in the early 2000 and continue to work on national security issues when I was in Congress. 00;06;41;02 - 00;06;49;13 Stephanie And so I see the world through that intersection of business legislation and national security. 00;06;49;15 - 00;07;06;24 Amanda Kristina, I want to come back to you and something that you said earlier, which is the advocacy work that you're doing at the state level. Can we dive in and talk about, like, what actual advocacy are you seeing in that space in terms of state involvement in digital asset regulation, and especially whether there's clarity at that level? 00;07;06;27 - 00;07;30;16 Kristina Sure. I think we're seeing the states be very active, and I think there is different reasons for this. I just think it's a knee jerk reaction to, I think a lot of the negative headlines over the past few years, and also seeing the lack of guidance or regulation being done at the congressional level that they see this need to jump in and regulate to fill that void. 00;07;30;19 - 00;07;59;23 Kristina In our work, at least over the past two years, I've seen 1520 bills introduced across nine states, including California, New York, Pennsylvania, pretty large, important bellwether states, and kind of the crux of the bills that we're seeing are these digital asset regulation bills that would regulate all digital assets the same, whether they were financial or non-financial, without a distinction between what is actual a financial asset and a consumer asset. 00;07;59;23 - 00;08;09;20 Kristina And this is problematic, but I think it stems back from the root of the problem, which is the lack of education and sophistication about the blockchain and Web3 industry. 00;08;09;21 - 00;08;35;27 Amanda My experience. And Stephanie, I'm curious because I think you've probably seen this at the national level, but usually there are industry or trade associations that are coordinating to try to do that education and advocacy. And I'm aware of the ones that tend to focus on the national level. And that's probably where Stephanie and I are most familiar. But are there state specific associations or are there trade associations that are focusing on that at the state level? 00;08;36;05 - 00;09;04;04 Kristina This is kind of I would say, like one of the big challenges is I think at the federal level, you have tremendous associations in organizations like the blockchain Association and the Chamber of Digital Commerce and TechNet and among others. But at the state level, there's no group that's really advocating and coordinating across states. And you have different blockchain state associations and crypto groups, but there's no coordination. 00;09;04;04 - 00;09;29;12 Kristina And it's particularly problematic for at least the NFT industry, which is again, different and has different interests and may not always be aligned with crypto. And some of the broader groups. And so it makes it challenging because if you don't hear from different sectors and industries and voices, then legislation will get passed and enacted without the proper stakeholders weighing in. 00;09;29;17 - 00;10;00;19 Amanda Well, so I do want to pick on something that you said, which is the perception that there's tremendous efforts at the national level, because I think when you move to the industry side, the perception of what trade associations are doing versus the reality on the other side, or actually kind of how it's been received. And Stephanie, as a as a former congresswoman, how you perceive those efforts going in terms of you just recently moved to the private sector, but when you were a congressperson, did you perceive that the advocacy efforts of the crypto blockchain industry were tremendous? 00;10;00;19 - 00;10;01;23 Amanda Did you feel that. 00;10;01;23 - 00;10;02;11 Amanda A lot of. 00;10;02;11 - 00;10;08;27 Amanda Congresspeople and their staff were getting sufficient education about the issues? Real talk. How did that go? 00;10;08;29 - 00;10;34;19 Stephanie Well, I think that the advocacy for the sector is is nascent and to be honest, right. But we are lucky to have some bipartisan senators and Reps who've taken up the mantle of crypto because their constituents want them to, because they understand the opportunity that exists with this technology. But I have to say, there's a ton more education that has to be done on Capitol Hill about crypto and blockchain. 00;10;34;19 - 00;11;19;02 Stephanie The reality is crypto isn't going anywhere. 52 million Americans own crypto today, and there's a demand to make sure that the policy and the regulations are right, so that we foster an environment that allows for the innovation that can come out of the Web3 and crypto. I will put a plug in. No, but there are groups like Stan with crypto that are getting the crypto constituency involved, really to advocate, to talk to their legislators, to tell policymakers why crypto is important to them and stand with crypto is a fairly new organization, but they already signed on 400,000 crypto advocates. 00;11;19;02 - 00;12;00;26 Stephanie They have over $2 million in donations. They've put in tons of calls and emails to members of Congress, and they were able to have an impact in recent primaries. So you're really starting to see this constituency make their interest known. And I think the reason why this particular constituency is going to be able to gain traction faster and maybe really make an impact faster than, say, other sectors, is that the crypto constituency is it's large, they're younger and more diverse, and that's a constituency that matters to policymakers. 00;12;01;00 - 00;12;25;26 Stephanie When you think about what group politicians have to win in order to win their seats and win in tough places, they have to win young, diverse and independent minded voters. And that aligns a bit with the crypto constituency. So I'd say watch and see how this this group really starts to gain traction and make a huge difference. 00;12;25;29 - 00;12;54;22 Amanda You make a really good point there. And it's funny because some of it reminded me of this great article that John Rizzo, who used to be former Treasury and he wrote it, I think, when he was at Clyde Group, but he wrote this very good article about how people are sleeping on the constituency, that is crypto supporters. But you did a really good job of explaining it even more than that, because I think people think, oh, it's just crypto people, but it is digitally native people who are looking at the future of digital innovation as a whole. 00;12;54;24 - 00;13;11;26 Amanda And it's not just about what their favorite meme coin is, it's about they're seeing this technology as the future of Web3 and everything that comes with that, and they're frankly, just a little bit more ahead of some other folks who may just think it's crap coins and speculation. 00;13;11;28 - 00;13;24;05 Stephanie 100%. And I think for any politician or legislator, underestimate this constituency at your own political risk because they are diverse. And it's not just about speculation. 00;13;24;07 - 00;13;44;10 Amanda It's funny because I, I have a friend who I worked with on the Hill and is now a lobbyist, and I said this to her and she told me she's a little disbelieving. She thought it was because I was the crypto person that I thought crypto was important. We were meeting her significant others nephew, who's 18, at a restaurant, and as soon as I got there and she said, oh, she's in crypto. 00;13;44;10 - 00;14;02;23 Amanda The 18 year old visiting D.C. was like, oh, what are you want to eat? Bitcoin? I have a ledger. Do you have cold store? And her face, I think, is the face that people make when they just don't realize how widespread this is amongst certain parts of the population. And I think you're 100% right that people aren't realizing. 00;14;03;00 - 00;14;18;21 Amanda I do want to go back to something that you said, though that's interesting about stand with crypto. I didn't realize, and I think a lot of people I talked to, you didn't realize that it was a stand alone group, that that it's its own organization, wholly separate and apart from Coinbase. Can you can you tell us a little bit more about that? 00;14;18;21 - 00;14;24;06 Amanda Just because I would love to know the details. But also I think some people probably have a misperception about that. Yeah. 00;14;24;06 - 00;14;57;10 Stephanie So seeing with crypto is a C4. So it's that C4 like A51 C4, which is a IRS tax code for a nonprofit that has political and education and advocacy writ, basically. And so it really focused on educating folks and helping people understand crypto and its importance to a significant number of Americans. I think it would be fair to say that stand with crypto is a part of the ecosystem of different organizations. 00;14;57;10 - 00;15;27;02 Stephanie There are the PACs that get involved in campaigns. There are industry associations that Kristina mentioned, and then there's 500 on C4 whose mission is more grassroots. And it really aligns well with, I think, the constituency, because this constituency is spread all across the country and really helping organize their voice so that it matters on the Hill and in state capitals is sort of the mission. 00;15;27;08 - 00;16;01;00 Amanda And you just hit on something. The state capitol issue. Kristina, are you seeing that kind of grassroots organization level at the state in terms of state representatives and politicians understanding this issue? Because we tend to get really focused in presidential election years on the national elections. But states are often having really critical elections as well. And are you seeing that in terms of the state understanding of this constituent, or even is that constituency kind of going forward at the state level and making that issue of concern known to them? 00;16;01;06 - 00;16;22;25 Kristina Yeah, I would say we're probably at the state level a little behind on that. Again, I think state elections, especially in 2024, are if this is a big election year at the state level. But I don't think crypto or Web3 is a priority issue. If you would ask me, maybe a year or two ago, I think it was more on the radar. 00;16;22;25 - 00;16;47;15 Kristina But again, I think another challenge at the state level is lawmakers and policymakers at least tend to skew a little bit older, and there tends to be more skepticism towards technology in general, and especially toward, you see, the word blockchain, it immediately kind of incites kind of a lot of skepticism. So I think there's a big hurdle that we have to overcome at the state level. 00;16;47;15 - 00;16;50;10 Kristina And that's just another layer to everything. 00;16;50;17 - 00;17;10;29 Amanda It's funny you say that because I've had this experience over and over, and when I talk to folks in foreign countries, they're always like, is there no age limit? You're septuagenarians and octogenarians are running your country, and the majority of your country is so young, and you've got people who are in their 90s literally dying in their chairs. 00;17;11;00 - 00;17;32;18 Amanda And it's a it's a very odd concept for them, but it is, I think, a problem that we have because to your point, and I think Stephanie mentioned this as well, people think crypto is all crap, crap, coins, memes and dog with hat and that person. When I show people when we're at dinner and I show them I could send you money right now, no intermediary, you could reimburse me for dinner. 00;17;32;18 - 00;18;02;05 Amanda I could literally send. That's crypto. It's a technology, right? Stablecoin. The ability for companies to send money to other companies instantly. Atomic settlement. That's crypto. I think we have a marketing problem. Essentially. Yes, it's an education problem, but it's also there were people who actually suggested to us to change our name from association for Women in Crypto because, quote, crypto was so toxic, just the word because of the perception that it is, quote, the speculation in the coins. 00;18;02;05 - 00;18;24;03 Amanda And I think it's one of those things where we joke about, well, how do you rebrand or how do you remarket crypto? I don't know if that's the answer. It's definitely feels like mass education is needed, but it is very difficult to explain to a generation of folks who really were dragged kicking and screaming to get off of flip phones into smartphones and the internet and all of this technology. 00;18;24;07 - 00;18;29;04 Amanda I just, I don't know, I don't even know how we address and start that. But Stephanie, I would love to hear your thoughts. 00;18;29;06 - 00;18;57;26 Stephanie I think that what you're pointing at is there's a lack of tech fluency among legislators where as their constituents are tech native. So there's this huge divide between the representatives and the represented. And so it's important to have education groups, advocacy groups to try to bridge that divide. But you see this problem not just in crypto, but you see it whether it's in social media. 00;18;57;26 - 00;19;24;10 Stephanie I mean, who can forget the hearing where the senator asked Tok why whenever he opens the app, he just sees dancing girls in bikinis and who pity the staffer who has to explain to him, sir, that because that's your algorithm. and but it's true, right? Like every time you see a tech hearing on the Hill, there is some major gap that underscores. 00;19;24;10 - 00;19;43;24 Stephanie So lack of understanding of how technology works. And I have to tell you, the number of times I've been asked to assist a former colleague when their phone was ringing out of control in the middle of a televised hearing, or they couldn't get Siri to stop speaking or I mean, it's funny. 00;19;43;24 - 00;19;48;00 Amanda But it's also sad. Like I'm laughing, but I'm also terrified inside. 00;19;48;02 - 00;20;19;04 Stephanie And so there's a couple things we can do. One, you can educate the people who are elected and who are there and bring them into the 21st century. You can also vote and elect people who have the ability to understand the technology and understand, most importantly, that America's competitive advantage in technology has been because we have in the past created environments where innovation has been able to flourish. 00;20;19;04 - 00;20;50;02 Stephanie And we do that by providing clear rules of the road and let our American innovative spirit and American entrepreneurs go do their thing. And right now, in so many areas of tech, we are falling behind on that duty to provide these one of America's greatest assets. The platforms that they need to be able to move out and really continue to lead in technology and to the fear is that it gets too confusing and to cumbersome here. 00;20;50;02 - 00;21;12;20 Stephanie And they move offshore, and that is a brain drain and an incredible loss for the United States, where over the last 36 years, we have led the world in technology. And I don't know about you, but I'd rather have a country and developers dedicated to democracy, leading innovation, then ceding that to places that are authoritarian. 00;21;12;26 - 00;21;44;23 Amanda Well, and I definitely want to come back to that in a second, but you hit on a point that we talk that I especially talk about. I feel like over and over at conferences, which is that historically, the U.S. did so, so well in innovation in tech because that was an area that was less regulated. But when you introduced the fin in part of tech, and you now are innovating in the most highly regulated space in financial services, you needed a innovation in regulation to match and keep up with the tech that you were inventing. 00;21;44;23 - 00;22;10;20 Amanda And then the problem was, okay, now, for the first time ever, we have a competition for who can regulate financial services the best in order to draw all of those brilliant innovators who are making fintech better. Right. And now you have a problem because all of the problems that America has, all of the divisiveness, all the gridlock, etc., all of the things that you would need to be innovative in financial regulation are now killing us and slowing us down. 00;22;10;20 - 00;22;33;14 Amanda And all the points Kristina, you made about the state system and the separation and the federalism, and we have all these agencies. And the problem that we talk about a lot is you've got a massive behemoth that's like an aircraft carrier competing with these very nimble governments, and it's very difficult to move an aircraft carrier quickly. Right. And I you actually have a background, I think you were you were in what brand you in the military, weren't you? 00;22;33;14 - 00;22;43;04 Stephanie I know I was a civilian who worked both on the Chief of Naval Operations staff. So yes, that's what it was. Aircraft carrier and also for the secretary. And so I was like. 00;22;43;07 - 00;23;02;11 Amanda If anyone should be using the aircraft carrier analogy, it's you. So if I'm using it wrong, I'm going to expect you to correct me. But it is it is a very difficult thing to move. But I do want to go back to something that you said. And Kristina, I'm curious your thoughts because we I feel like Stephanie, I saw you several months ago when Professor Chris Brummer had his national. 00;23;02;11 - 00;23;24;11 Amanda It was digital assets and national security or national security and digital assets, I can't remember. I think he did it with Cryptocurrency Council for Innovation and Coinbase I think. And you made a really good point. And you me many good points. But there was one that I remember really struck with me in terms of you said, if our friends are working hard to get off the US dollar, imagine how hard our folks are working. 00;23;24;14 - 00;23;53;10 Amanda And you touched on the national security issue. I know crypto enthusiasts are thinking about things in terms of the innovation, but I guess I worry about the number of people who don't understand the crypto aspect. Stablecoins, the rise in alternative currencies as this being a very, very heavy issue and national security and maintaining dollar dominance, U.S. stability, and in geopolitics, I mean that that will be and should be its own entire podcast episode. 00;23;53;10 - 00;24;11;16 Amanda And maybe we get you to come back for that one. But I say that to say that, are you guys seeing both at the state and federal levels, any kind of attention given to the fact that crypto, digital assets, all of this is actually a far greater issue when you're talking about finance and the financial world order and it being a national security. 00;24;11;16 - 00;24;39;27 Stephanie Aspect, I think that there is some awareness around the risk and dollar hegemony is a key element of national power. And when we were on that panel, the EU rep basically said we moved out as the EU, creating a crypto policy and guidelines because we don't want to be dependent on the United States. we see our our currency independence as a key element of our sovereignty. 00;24;39;27 - 00;25;01;18 Stephanie And so that's like it was stunning to me to hear a European ally say that they didn't want to see Dollar Germany any longer, because it was a matter of sovereignty for them. But what I think is that in addition to what our allies are doing, I think we should be paying attention to what our adversaries are also interested in. 00;25;01;18 - 00;25;28;23 Stephanie While China puts the cryptocurrency on lock for their their citizens, they are very much pushing forward on different types of technology that crypto can be used for. So they seem to understand the Web3 use cases a little bit better than some of our legislators do, where they're really supporting using crypto for trade ledgers and some of these other types of things. 00;25;28;23 - 00;25;53;17 Stephanie And so it doesn't take too much imagination when you see a world where our international trading system is sort of fracturing into economic spheres of influence, how dangerous this could become, where they could displace the dollar and not only displace the dollar, but displace the dollar in the use of of trading with the combination of technology and a Cbdc. 00;25;53;18 - 00;26;25;19 Stephanie So I think that that's one piece that's really important, that the US kind of understands and, and sees that that's another element and another area where China is trying to compete and dominate Vis-A-Vis the United States. So ultimately, I think that crypto is a tool, and tools can be used by our enemies to digitize their own currencies and maybe move away from the dollar, but they can also be used by us by to fortify our dollar. 00;26;25;19 - 00;26;51;20 Stephanie And right now, the stablecoin market is something like 98% US dollar denominated. This makes stablecoins like an amazing asset that can help fortify the dollar's strength. including in these international payments or international transactions. And so I think we have an opportunity to lean into this and, and use it as an advantage for us in, in the competition with China. 00;26;51;27 - 00;27;16;17 Amanda Well, and Kristina, this is somewhere where traditionally historically the states weren't. Well, they've never been responsible for national security. That was literally the concept of federalism was there were some things that should have been at the national level, and there were some things that should have been handled at the state level. But to a point that I think you made earlier, it does seem like some of the states are looking at the lack of movement at the national level, and are stepping in to try to fill that gap. 00;27;16;17 - 00;27;35;13 Amanda Now, whether they see it as a national security issue or an economic issue. I'm curious what you're seeing in those states, because there are some states, California and GDPR, just as an example, Stephanie mentioned, I remember in our prep call that the issue of privacy and how we've seen some states step into that realm to basically regulate where they felt the federal government wasn't. 00;27;35;19 - 00;27;49;29 Amanda Christine, are you seeing that in terms of states that are a do they understand it? Are they looking at it as a national security issue, be even if they're not, are there states that are stepping in to try to fill the gap that is being left by the national government? 00;27;49;29 - 00;28;15;20 Kristina Yeah, I would say on the security front, I think a lot of states and legislatures are very cognizant of a lot of the national headlines. So when you see stories about crypto being used to potentially fund terrorist groups or whatever that may be, that I think produces a lot of questions and concerns that drives their desire at the state level to regulate crypto. 00;28;15;23 - 00;28;37;17 Kristina But then again, I think the inadvertently all digital assets. So, yes, I think that that certainly plays into it. And yeah, the states are frustrated. I think with the lack of federal action, I will tell you, I was at a hearing at the House, the Pennsylvania House Commerce Committee, a couple weeks ago, and with several other stakeholders within the industry. 00;28;37;17 - 00;28;55;14 Kristina And all of the members expressed frustration at that hearing when they say Pennsylvania is going to do something on regulating crypto because nothing is being done at the federal level, and we're not going to wait. And I think they know, given that we have a pretty big election coming up in November, and that could probably lead to a lot of different changes. 00;28;55;14 - 00;29;04;11 Kristina And it's hard to believe, but even more divisiveness and that this could be punted down the road for many years to come. And I'll tell you that the States will not wait for that. 00;29;04;14 - 00;29;43;17 Amanda Kristina, I want to go back to something that Stephanie said earlier where she was talking about the risk basically presented of if we don't get regulating this. Right. And what you just said a minute ago about states and how they're looking at this and something that you said earlier about there not being a coordinated effort at the state level, it seems like there's a real risk that if states move forward thinking about this, maybe from a business sense, maybe reacting to FDX, maybe thinking about it from AML, but not appreciating the points that Stephanie made earlier about, look, there's a bigger narrative picture here, which is finance, which is national security, which is what is 00;29;43;17 - 00;29;55;17 Amanda China is doing that without that coordinated effort at the state level, that we could have some really bad state legislation that could inadvertently cause problems when it's trying to solve them. Do you know what I mean? 00;29;55;17 - 00;30;26;01 Kristina No. I mean, I think that's exactly right. And I think the fear is that it really only takes one bad bill or regime to pass, especially in a bigger bellwether state, for there to be a national domino effect. And so you think of different patchworks that that has happened under privacy or content moderation or other issues, and it creates real burdens and compliance nightmares for companies looking to innovate and thrive in this space and thinking how they're going to comply in all 50 states with all different regimes and nuances. 00;30;26;01 - 00;30;47;29 Kristina So I think that's definitely a real risk. And again, just seeing how things, how quickly things move into states and how there's often knee jerk reactions, I think it's definitely something that we need to be mindful of, especially for. Again, I'll go back to digital assets that are not financial in nature, like consumer products and digital products that have really good positive use cases. 00;30;47;29 - 00;30;58;14 Kristina Again, that I think there needs to be more education about, and that not everything is crypto and we can use these technologies for good. That is my fear. Those will be particularly hurt. 00;30;58;16 - 00;31;23;06 Amanda Well, I'm curious if either of you something that I learned recently that was really surprising to me because I actually I think because I was a career employee at DOJ, I was probably horrifyingly apolitical. And in fact, I like to say I was civically irresponsible in terms of paying attention to what was happening in American politics. Certainly, the last year of my life woke me up like a blanching process to to what was happening there. 00;31;23;06 - 00;31;51;03 Amanda But what I found fascinating was talking to a friend of mine who used to be a Democrat staffer, where I think the perception of the parties historically and where they stand on innovation is interesting, because what I'm seeing is that there doesn't really seem to be a consistent party position narrative, like you'll see a congressman or a senator who's very pro or against, but it doesn't seem to be kind of a party line as much as like that individual's position. 00;31;51;03 - 00;32;11;09 Amanda The best example of this right is Senators Lummis and Gillibrand, who are on opposite sides of the aisle but are clearly seeing the ramifications of what happens if we don't do anything in this space. And they've both proposed a regulatory framework. Yesterday, they announced a proposed stablecoin bill to Stephanie's point about the importance of stablecoins shoring up dollar dominance. 00;32;11;16 - 00;32;22;22 Amanda But do either of you see parties looking at this issue? Is it an individualistic viewpoint? It is their organization around this. I mean, boots on the ground, it just seems very fractured. 00;32;22;24 - 00;32;43;15 Stephanie Actually. This is one of the areas where I see a lot of hope in an otherwise really polarized political environment. And the reason I see a lot of hope is that there's a policy imperative, and then there's a political imperative. So the policy imperative is blockchain. And crypto is the next generation of the internet, and it's not going anywhere. 00;32;43;15 - 00;33;09;28 Stephanie And then the political imperative goes back to that, that diverse young constituency that I mentioned. The crypto is a bipartisan issue. Democrats, Republicans, independents, everybody owns crypto. There's not like it's not it's not an issue that belongs to any one party. And in fact, if you think about the number of people who own crypto, there's like 1 in 5 Americans own crypto, that's three. 00;33;09;28 - 00;33;25;25 Stephanie And a half times the size of union membership. That's five and a half, five times the size of electric vehicle owners. It's like 10 million more than use a ridesharing service every month. So just think about that. That that's how wide. 00;33;25;25 - 00;33;29;13 Amanda That's actually amazing. I've never heard those numbers. That's incredible. 00;33;29;16 - 00;33;53;19 Stephanie That's how widespread it is. And so going back to the political imperative piece, like if you want to hold onto your seat and be an octogenarian or it's up to January in Congress, I'm kidding about that. But if you want to win the next election, basically you have to be able to speak to this large constituency that exists in everybody's districts all across the country. 00;33;53;19 - 00;34;17;17 Stephanie Crypto is in every single state. In every single district. There is somebody who there are many somebodies who care an awful lot about it. So there's a policy imperative. It's like we have to do this for innovation, for technology, for national security, for our economy. But we also have to do this. And by we, the political leadership has to do this because of the political imperative that exists that cuts across all parties. 00;34;17;17 - 00;34;29;22 Stephanie And so it's actually one of these areas where despite how divided our country is, this is an area that kind of unites a lot of people from the average American citizen all the way to their elected representatives. 00;34;29;29 - 00;34;52;14 Amanda Well, and frankly, I think if more Americans understood that it's not the coins, it's not the memes, that this is actually the future of digital finance. I think if they understood that digital innovation as a whole, Web3 digital identity, all of this is now wrapped up kind of, to your point, in this big giant ecosystem that becomes very difficult to kind of cut things out and separate. 00;34;52;18 - 00;35;16;13 Amanda I think if they understood it that level, they would be very concerned with the path that some people take. I'll take a personal example, which was my personal disappointment with Senator Warren, who for decades has said she is a fan of the democratization of finance. And I will tell you, as somebody who sat and watched the invention of democratized finance in crypto, Web3, it's literally the technology that could democratize finance. 00;35;16;13 - 00;35;35;21 Amanda And she I think, called it her army against crypto. And I was like, aside from just falling prey to a false narrative about it being all for criminals, and it's wild, the positions that you're seeing, people take that to your point. In the short term, I really don't even understand it. But now I will say I didn't understand it. 00;35;35;21 - 00;36;01;13 Amanda And I asked a friend of mine who historically had worked for Democrats because I don't really understand. I'm learning about the party differences, etc., which as an American is terrifying. I really should have learned it before 40, but that's a discussion for another day. But he said basically that historically Democrats, when they talk about innovation, have usually referred to it as, quote, predatory innovation and that there's this kind of like paternalistic concern that if innovation comes, it's going to take advantage of people. 00;36;01;13 - 00;36;21;11 Amanda And there's this focus on like consumer protection, which don't get me wrong with crypto and scams, 100%, that is an issue. I don't want to downplay that, but it's a little terrifying when you think about if that concern outweighs to your point, Stephanie, the innovation in the future and maintaining a competitive advantage and maintaining dollar dominance, that's a massive implication. 00;36;21;11 - 00;36;40;16 Amanda That's not just that the positives she said about these are all the things that could happen. But then there's a very real question is, do you want to be the party held responsible for losing the war on Web3 and losing dollar dominance and I feel like people, like some of the folks that I talk to in politics, don't understand that there's a risk of loss here, not just of the opportunity. 00;36;40;16 - 00;37;01;11 Amanda And everything you said about business, moving abroad, but that if we lose the war on Web3 and it and it's the digital euro, or it's the digital yuan or the digital ruble, if you're the party responsible because you were just so stuck on being entrenched in winning and all of that's a war we can't refight. Right. And I think that's a question of what happens. 00;37;01;11 - 00;37;19;22 Amanda And Kristina, I want to go back for a second in terms back to the question that that I ask Stephanie, in terms of, are you seeing at the party level in state parties? Are you seeing discussion about crypto, blockchain, digital assets being something that the party itself should look at, or is it still more at the individual level? 00;37;19;24 - 00;37;41;14 Kristina Yeah, I mean, I've seen parties specifically looking at it at the state level, having it on their policy platforms or agendas. I haven't seen that. I think what we're seeing is a lot of legislation tends to be in larger blue states. And again, this is in this knee jerk reaction that we need to protect consumers from these this fraud and this scam. 00;37;41;14 - 00;37;58;07 Kristina Again, that goes back to, I think a lot of the people and problems that the industry did have access to FDX. And so again, it's it's thinking of that all through that lens. So that's what we're seeing. A lot of the legislation I don't see this as a party issue at all. But that's what we tend to see the bills. 00;37;58;07 - 00;38;18;26 Kristina And oftentimes it's you do hear legislators, Republicans and Democrats, when they talk about it, they'll usually talk about it through the terms that they knew a constituent who had an issue or was impacted by a scam. And immediately, that just kind of thwarts their thinking and it becomes very hard and problematic. Tried to overcome that. 00;38;18;29 - 00;38;37;20 Amanda And the frustrating thing to me about that as a money laundering prosecutor who used to work at the Department of Justice, can I tell you the number of congresspeople who, when we handled thousands of victims who lost their money through scams, going through a bank, do you know how many congresspeople called up and said we should really shut down banking? 00;38;37;20 - 00;39;00;11 Amanda We should really shut down banks? Like we really need to nip in the bud. This financial institution that's processing millions upon billions. I mean, not many people said shut down banking after HSBC processed cartel money. None. It's a very strange thing to me when people are suddenly so concerned about what's essentially the evolution of finance, like criminals are going to crim, right? 00;39;00;13 - 00;39;22;12 Amanda Like, I can't we couldn't solve crime at DOJ. The idea that they're not just going to flow to like the next type of money transfer, right? I mean, I remember I had a case where they used I, I'm aging myself here, but I don't know if you guys remember green Dot and the money PAC. Right. Like money PAC was essentially like a, like a GPS card that criminals just went to float like a waterfall. 00;39;22;12 - 00;39;42;14 Amanda It was super easy. It was like cash. It was so bad they pulled it off the shelves. There was a congressional hearing but cleaned out fine. GDPR cards are fine. Nobody ever shut down, right? Criminals are going to find really good payment methods that are conducive to moving money. And it's just a very weird thing that I wish that we had some better ideas. 00;39;42;14 - 00;40;08;24 Amanda And maybe Stephanie, this is what Stan with crypto is doing, but it seems like we need better explanations and better education around all of the all of the potential for this technology, without getting so wrapped up in what is the inevitable bad use of technology by criminals. Like I tell people, most people don't realize that bank robbers were the first adopters of the motorized vehicle because it was easier to escape in a car than on a horse. 00;40;08;27 - 00;40;25;26 Amanda And so if you use a car to rob a bank, you are far better off than horses. Because if law enforcement only had horses and you had a car, there's a much better chance that you got away. But we didn't shut down the car industry. We didn't shut down the internet. When child pornography proliferated like a plague. We didn't shut down other technologies. 00;40;25;26 - 00;40;52;27 Amanda When criminals inevitably use them. And it's wild to me. And I know there's all kinds of conspiracy theories out there, and I can be conspiracy theories. So that's a rabbit hole we'll save for another podcast. But it does seem to be like a really big problem that ties into something that both of you said, which is if the septuagenarians, the octogenarians and just the uneducated are so willing to shut down a technology because of what the mind already of criminals are doing with it, how do we see how do we change that narrative in the United States to stay competitive? 00;40;52;28 - 00;41;11;21 Amanda I mean, Stephanie, a moment ago you said there was hope. And you're right. Like I, I agree, I tend to be a little darker and dystopian. So I'm always happy when somebody wants to focus on the hope. But you're both really involved in advocacy and what can we do? I mean, yeah, stand with crypto is great, but how do we and if the answer is stand with crypto great. 00;41;11;21 - 00;41;17;03 Amanda Like happy throw out the website. Let's is it stand with crypto dawg. Stand with Crypto.com. I don't. 00;41;17;03 - 00;41;20;28 Stephanie It. Yes it is. Stand with crypto Sean. 00;41;21;00 - 00;41;42;16 Amanda Okay, fantastic. So first step, let's go there, see what it's about. But what else can people do? I mean, because I feel like the trade associations are largely business members, is there I mean, aside from staying with crypto, are there things that individual people can do to get more involved in the process to educate their lawmakers about crypto, blockchain and innovation? 00;41;42;18 - 00;42;24;06 Stephanie So yes, I would say start by joining advocacy groups like stand with Crypto and call your representatives to tell them why it's important that they support bipartisan legislation. Legislation like the stablecoin legislation that you mentioned and fit 21. And then really they need to vote. The 2024 election is probably the most important one in crypto's history. it's really a an election where there's a clear choice in many of these races about whether somebody is someone who wants to update the financial system and ensure that crypto as a technology has guidelines that allows it to flourish. 00;42;24;09 - 00;42;58;28 Stephanie And and then versus candidates who basically stand with legacy institutions that are slow, that are exclusives, that are expensive candidates have a real choice between democratization of not just financial services, but of all the things that lend pre all the use cases that Web3 offers or they can choose the dinosaur what is in the past. And I think it's really critical that the leaders that are elected this year understand the potential for crypto, all of it, not just the currency piece, but all the other use cases too. 00;42;58;28 - 00;43;13;15 Stephanie And we need leaders who understand that crypto is here to stay. And with the right policies and responsible regulation, the US can be a leader in ushering in the next generation of this technology. 00;43;13;17 - 00;43;33;11 Amanda Well, and Kristina, in my experience and I say this from personal experience, being a terrible American who didn't pay attention to state and local races as much as at the national level, are you seeing any kind of concentration in state races, or the idea that state elected representatives, or even local elected representatives, could use this as a platform for awareness? 00;43;33;11 - 00;43;50;24 Amanda And and if they're not, how do we get that to be an issue? Because to Stephanie's point, yes, at the national level, it's abundantly clear and obvious. But at the state and local level, I don't think people realize myself being one of them. How much power those folks have over state legislation, over state policies and the impact that it can have. 00;43;50;24 - 00;44;09;22 Amanda So are you seeing folks campaigning on that, for lack of a better word, or mobilizing on that? It'd be. If not, are there suggestions that that people could get involved at the state level for, for how to do advocacy, I guess in an individual capacity or their groups that they can join? Or what could they do if they wanted to contact like the state folks? 00;44;09;25 - 00;44;30;27 Kristina Sean, I have not really seen and I'm sure there are again, it's hard with some legislatures have like New Hampshire I think have over 400 members. So it's hard to know what everyone's doing. I don't see again, folks campaigning on blockchain or crypto to be like a priority. But that said, they don't have as much volume as members of Congress. 00;44;30;27 - 00;44;55;28 Kristina So if you are interested and you reach out to your state representative or state senator, your message will get through that. It means a lot. It doesn't take as many messages and voices at the state level to make an impact, and that's important. And a lot of lawmakers hold district events. And if you can go and say, hey, this is what I'm interested in or this is my business and just want to make sure I answer any questions or just be a resource for them. 00;44;55;28 - 00;45;14;24 Kristina I think a lot of folks are just craving for information, again, because they have so many issues to deal with, and sessions moved so quickly at the state level that they don't have time to to learn all the nuts and bolts. And so they're waiting for someone to come tell them that. And then also, I think most states have a blockchain association or some local advocacy group. 00;45;14;24 - 00;45;30;15 Kristina And so I find out and go to their website and, and figure out who leads that. And I will say on the NFT front, obviously we're trying to, I think, bring more voices together and build more of a coalition on that front. So please reach out to me if you're interested on that, and I'll make sure you're looped in. 00;45;30;15 - 00;45;37;19 Kristina But it's I know it's overwhelming at times today. Can I make a difference? But you can. I've seen it so. 00;45;37;22 - 00;45;59;20 Amanda Well and you just literally said out loud a thought that I was having as I listened to Stephanie, which is and I was just talking with somebody about this yesterday, we all sit in the world of crypto, blockchain, Web3, and we're talking about the reduction in dollar dominance and national security issues and anti-competitive behavior. And then you turn on the news and it's possible war in the Middle East. 00;45;59;20 - 00;46;26;22 Amanda Right. And it's climate change. And and there's there's so many it feels like there's so many horrible things going on all at the same time. Right. And especially when you look at the election, the issue of abortion and Roe versus Wade and school shootings, and there's all of these things that just take up the bandwidth of things to care about that one of my friends said, it's very difficult to say yes, abortion, school shootings, war in the Middle East. 00;46;26;25 - 00;46;57;17 Amanda But what about crypto, blockchain, Web3 and our competitiveness on the global stage? It's a tough thing to get that to cut through the noise when it feels like everything is so is is very difficult. So I appreciate you, the two of you and your advocacy efforts. I appreciate stand with crypto and all of the groups that are kind of working to raise that issue and I and I really appreciate kind of all of your thoughts and everything that you've contributed, because I think this has been a really great episode that in some ways actually gave me hope. 00;46;57;17 - 00;47;16;17 Amanda And and in a way that I didn't think I would end with, which is always a good thing to to end with hope. So I just want to say a huge thank you to both of you and to our sponsor, Bracewell LLP, to Emily Barofsky, for her invaluable technical support and to everyone listening, positive or negative. We welcome your feedback and we hope you'll rate us online. 00;47;16;19 - 00;47;36;17 Amanda And please let us know if you have comments, questions or thoughts for future podcasts. For anyone who's interested in learning more about the Association for Women in Cryptocurrency, our global events, or the initiatives we're working on to increase inclusion, please check out our public LinkedIn page, our Twitter or Instagram pages at a global or our web page at Dot. 00;47;36;17 - 00;47;49;01 Amanda Women in crypto.org, which is also where you can sign up and join Stephanie. Kristina, I really want to thank you again for an amazing conversation. Thanks again to all of you for tuning in and listening. We hope you have a wonderful week and we can't wait to see you next time!