All Things EAP - Episode 2

[00:00:00] Laura Richards: Hi, and welcome to All Things EAP, a podcast produced by practitioners across the globe and hosted by BALEAP. It provides a fun and friendly look at every aspect of EAP, helping you keep up with the latest developments and building an inclusive and equitable community around the world. Following the BALEAP, we hope to be collaborative, professional, developmental, and inclusive.  Each episode, we'll dive into an aspect of EAP with discussions, reflections, and insights from practitioners in different contexts.  Whoever  and wherever you are,  we hope you find this podcast informative and insightful.

[00:00:55] Xiaoqing Bi: Hello . My name is Xiaoqing Bi, and I'm an EAP teacher at Xi'an Jiaotong Liverpool University in China, where I teach ESAP course to undergraduate business students. And I'm also an EAP researcher, mainly in the area of EAP practitioners' professional development. Joining me today is my co-host, Paul Breen. 

[00:01:16] Paul Breen: Hello, everyone. My name's Paul Breen. I'm originally from Ireland, but I'm based in London, where I work for UCL as a senior EAP digital learning developer. My interests in EAP are primarily in teacher development, social justice, and educational technology. But I'm also very interested in transnational education, having worked overseas in Asia and Australia, which is why I'm very glad to be part of today's episode. 

[00:01:40] Xiaoqing Bi: Today we have a very exciting topic lined up for you. We will be discussing EAP in different transnational education institutions. For those who might not be familiar, transnational education, or TNE, is all about offering students a chance to earn a degree from an overseas university. without having to leave their home country. Essentially it involves a course or institution where the learners are based in one country, but the qualification is awarded by an institution in another. Most of these programs use English as medium of instruction. 

So today we will be joined by two guests. First is one of my XJTLU colleagues, Sam Evans. And then we will hear from Magda Rostron, who is an EAP teacher at Georgetown University in Qatar. Let's start our discussion today by focusing on specifically Chinese context. In China, TNE mainly revolves around Sino-Foreign Partnership universities. This trend started gaining traction with educational reforms back in 2003, allowing well-known universities, mostly from the UK and the US to collaborate with Chinese institutions. The university of Nottingham Ningbo was a pioneer in this field, opening in 2004, followed by XJTLU in 2006. To talk more about transnational education in China. Let's welcome our first guest, Sam Evans. Sam is an EAP teacher at XJTLU. Before coming to XJTLU in 2019, he taught in several universities in the UK.
 
[00:03:33] Xiaoqing Bi: Hello Sam, welcome to the show. 

[00:03:38] Sam Evans: Hello, thank you for having me.

[00:03:40] Paul Breen: Hi, Sam. Can you say something about the different models of TNE, and the type that you have in XJTLU, where you and Xiaoqing work?

[00:03:51] Sam Evans: Well, yes, I suppose the two main models of TNE in China could be summed up by comparing our university, XJTLU, and the other pioneering TNE university in China, University of Nottingham Ningbo China, UNNC. As mentioned in your introduction, UNNC was actually the first transnational university in China, started in 2004, and then closely followed by our university, XJTLU, two years later. But, these two universities are based on quite different conceptions. UNNC is set up as a branch campus of Nottingham University. So, that's where there's a host university, in this case, Nottingham. And it establishes branches in another country. I guess it's kind of like when a food company opens franchise outlets. There's already this standard way of doing everything, and there's little room for deviation. And, I suppose when you're setting up a new university, I can understand why you'd want to build on some tried and tested systems that are already well established.

But XJTLU is different. It's called an Independent Sino-Foreign Cooperative University. And it's supposed to be this blending together of the educational cultures of both the parent universities. So Liverpool University in the UK and Xi'an Jiaotong University in China. So it's kind of the best of the West, the best of the East. I mean the education is supposed to be tailored to the context to develop students who are prepared to survive and thrive in different cultural environments. So as a teacher at XJTLU, I think you've probably got more independence than one of these branch campuses in terms of creating your own modules, developing that curricula, making materials, designing assessments, Yeah. And you probably wouldn't have that everywhere. So that was one of the attractive features specifically that drew me to XJTLU. 

[00:06:01] Xiaoqing Bi: That's really interesting. You moved to teach in the TNE University in China after several years of teaching in UK universities, and clearly you joined a fast growing sector of the higher education industry. The number of students enrolled in TNE programs increased from just under 50,000 in 2013 to over 78,000 in 2020. Why do you think this is? 

[00:06:29] Sam Evans: well, that's some good statistics. I didn't know it had shot up quite that suddenly, but yeah, I have to say I'm not so surprised. If I can put myself in the position of a Chinese student, and they've got the option to save money by staying in China, while at the same time, they're still able to study in an English language environment. experience the, if we could say, kind of educational culture based around critical thinking, learner autonomy, and perhaps most importantly, getting a certificate from what's still seen as a prestigious university in the UK. Then, yeah, I can understand why lots of Chinese students choose a transnational university. Let's face it, the UK certainly isn't presenting itself as a welcoming place for international students to come and live in recent years. 

[00:07:21] Paul Breen: I was just going to say this I think is one of the dangers that EAP and British universities are facing. And at the present time, there is a drop in the numbers of students coming from places such as China. So, why are they staying in China, do you think, students, rather than coming to study in Britain? 

[00:07:45] Sam Evans: Well, I think it's partly economic reasons. As we always say, EAP is a kind of transactional proposition. It's needs driven. it's time bound. Students are learning EAP for a particular reason. It serves a purpose. It's a vehicle to get onto a course or to survive on a course. And the majority of students I teach here I've made a calculation that it's more economical for them to be studying in China than to go to the UK.
Many of them would have gone to the UK if it wasn't for financial reasons, family reasons, COVID is obviously a big thing. And as we know, recently, the the UK government have changed certain policies around particularly being able to bring dependents to the UK ' 

I'm not sure how much that necessarily affects Chinese students compared to other nationalities, but it certainly fits into a picture where international students might feel they're less welcomed in the UK than they were in the past. So, I think there are several reasons why the students, and obviously the availability of this English language environment for them to take advantage of within China as well. 

[00:09:04] Xiaoqing Bi: Yeah, I know what you mean. But what about for you as an EAP teacher? What is the attraction for you to work in a TNE university? 

[00:09:12] Sam Evans: Well, as mentioned, I was teaching EAP in the UK for several years before I came to China. But as we see now, the higher education sector in the UK is facing a lot of challenges. We always read about stagnant wages, the wage inequality, precarity, zero hour contracts, contracting out EAP courses to private companies. The list seems endless and now with the drop in the number of international students, EAP teachers in the UK really feel at the sharp end of all of this, like we're just picking up the scraps. 

[00:09:49] Xiaoqing Bi: That's really interesting. I think that for me, and lots of teachers like me who have only taught EAP in China, when we talk to university teachers in the UK, and we hear about the difficulties that higher education sector is facing there, and the tough conditions many university teachers are facing, it's a real surprise.

[00:10:12] Sam Evans: Well, yeah, I definitely feel like I jumped ship just at the right moment when I came to China, um, came here in 2019. And to be honest, the relatively high salary here, the more stable contract situation, they are attractive features when you compare it to the current state of the EAP environment back in the UK. 

[00:10:35] Paul Breen: So There might be lots of EAP teachers listening to this podcast who have only ever taught in the UK. And they might be very interested in the idea of moving to teach in China. So, Sam, what advice would you give those teachers? 

[00:10:51] Sam Evans: Yeah, you're right, Paul. I was in that position about, four and a half years ago. I'd been teaching EAP in the UK for quite a long time, about 12 years, and I was ready for a change and I had some colleagues who were considering China as an option and I looked into it But you need to go into it with your eyes open. So just make sure that you do your research, you know, talk to people who are already teaching in China, who've been here before. Make sure you know what you're letting yourself in for. but for me I can say it's been a really good move. 

[00:11:27] Paul Breen: Yeah. I mean, I was external examiner for the university that you're now working in. And I think one of the things that surprised me was the nature of the work, because it was so interdisciplinary and so cutting edge in many aspects. And I was quite surprised again at the level of the students. Because very often when we teach Pre-sessionals in the UK they're based around a deficit model and we get some of the weaker students that are coming in. Whereas it's really only in in-sessional courses that we perhaps get to work with higher level students of different nationalities, including the Chinese. 

[00:12:10] Xiaoqing Bi: Okay, so you've been talking quite a lot about the differences in the students in the UK and in our TNE University in China, but what about the differences in teaching staff? So Sam, since you've taught in both places, do you see any difference in the typical makeup of teaching staff where you taught in the UK compared to here in XJTLU?

[00:12:34] Sam Evans: Yeah, that's, that's a really interesting thing, that's A real advantage, I think, of teaching in China, being able to work with such a varied range of teachers from different backgrounds, different nationalities. So teaching in the UK, I was mainly teaching with British people, teachers who'd gone through, I guess you could say the traditional route into EAP coming from a language teaching, communicative language teaching, background, done a CELTA, maybe worked abroad, teaching in language schools, maybe done a DELTA. So we have a similar approach to teaching, I suppose, and then had moved into EAP, often through a pre-sessional and then asked to stay on, if we were lucky, after the summer. Another thing, the teaching staff here is far bigger. There's about, 200 in our English language department. I think, far bigger than any EAP department in UK universities, certainly where I'd worked. And about half, or maybe more than half, would you say, Xiaoqing? , 60 percent are Chinese. 

[00:13:44] Xiaoqing Bi: I'm not sure about the number, but we have more Chinese staff. Yeah. 

[00:13:49] Sam Evans: From what I know about your background, Xiaoqing, you'd be an example from a much more, academic, theoretical background. So you haven't done the whole, okay, I know, Xiaoqing, you have done the CELTA and the DELTA. Many of our colleagues haven't had that hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of hours in a language teaching classroom where you develop that awareness. But you have had and many of our Chinese colleagues have had far more formal study of EAP.
For example, doing EAP specific masters or masters modules. Before you actually start teaching before you actually set foot in the classroom. So I think that this presents an opportunity because there's lots of teachers like me, who've got lots of classroom experience and, you know, we've adapted language teaching games and approaches, and then we've got lots of teachers, mainly among our Chinese colleagues, obviously I'm generalizing, who've got much more of an awareness of academic EAP theory than I've ever had. And if we can find a way to diversify the kind of training and teacher development that we provide which is suitable to teachers from both of those backgrounds, or anyone on that kind of spectrum, and also share the various advantages that we bring from our different backgrounds together, I think it presents a real opportunity for teacher development and sharing.

[00:15:23] Xiaoqing Bi: Yeah, that's a really good point, Sam.

[00:15:25] Paul Breen: It sounds like a really amazing environment to work in. And that leads us on to another question which I think our audience would be very, very interested in. How has teaching EAP in China helped you to develop as a teacher, Sam? And maybe just think, is there a scholarship angle there as well, in terms of the theory that you mentioned?

[00:15:47] Sam Evans: Yeah, certainly. Well, having such a huge department, , you find colleagues who are interested in all different aspects of EAP theory, teaching approaches. If you could think of it, there'll be a colleague who is interested in discussing these ideas, potentially collaborating with you and different types of ideas as well.
One of the early Pre-sessionals that I worked on here, so I've been the pre sessional coordinator for the last few years, and one thing I was trying to embed was a process of peer feedback, peer review into the writing process. And was meeting some resistance from students and from staff as well. And by working together with a Chinese colleague, this was something that we actually turned into a study and it was her that inspired us to look at it from a more cultural angle, like layers of different culture. Like, a micro cultural or meso cultural or macro cultural theory.

[00:16:47] Paul Breen: That's actually, that is really interesting . So I guess maybe in some ways it's, it's the reverse experience for you. As a Western teacher going to China, you, you have to build up that kind of cultural literacy in a whole new environment. 

[00:17:01] Sam Evans: Yeah, definitely. Trying to convince the teachers of the validity of what you're doing is always half the battle because then the teachers have to convince the students.
So if I was trying to design this peer feedback process in a pre sessional in the UK, for example, I might find it easier to convince colleagues there than convincing colleagues here who then need to convince those students. But when we started looking at it from that theoretical perspective of layers of culture, that really kind of unlocked a new way of looking at it.
And that influenced the way that I pitch it to the teaching team on the pre sessional now. And I think I don't know, Xiaoqing, , you've taught on this , reading writing strand of the pre sessional a couple of times. So what do you think? Do you think it's working effectively?

[00:17:51] Xiaoqing Bi: Yeah, I really think the students benefit a lot. It's like discovered a new world of helping each other to learn English. I mean, as a teacher, I learned a lot as well. 
[00:18:02] Sam Evans: Yeah that initial resistance was what taught me a lot about the cultural obstacles that I was facing and ways to overcome them. And, the fact that we're able to experiment with these things is a lot to do with the model of transnational university that we work in here that gives you more independence to be able to try things out and have some freedom.
[00:18:28] Xiaoqing Bi: Yeah, I agree. The blend of diverse cultural perspectives fosters an exceptional learning environment. Thank you so much, Sam, for sharing your valuable insights and experiences with us today.
[00:18:40] Sam Evans: Thank you for inviting me Xiaoqing and Paul. It's been great to be here. 
 
[00:18:47] Paul Breen: And now we move from China to Qatar, where we are going to speak with Magda Rostron, an EAP teacher and also the author of a chapter in my recent co-edited book, Social Justice in EAP and ELT Contexts.

[00:19:02] Xiaoqing Bi: Hi, Magda. Nice to have you. Could you tell us what is your own background as EAP practitioner and how did you end up in Qatar? 

[00:19:11] Magda Rostron: Thank you very much for having me. I studied English literature and teaching English as a foreign language at Warsaw University. I lived in England for a couple of years got married there and my husband was an English teacher as well. He at some point decided to apply for jobs abroad. And we ended up coming to Qatar, where we both taught English for academic purposes at Qatar University. At the time, in the 90s, it was the only national university in the country, and English was used for academic purposes,, as an auxiliary language, not as the language of instruction. That changed later on, and Qatar University started teaching through a foundation program to make sure that students, local students of Qatar University could study in English. So that was my beginning but I moved from Qatar University to Qatar Foundation, which is a transnational hub an ecosystem of various interconnected educational institutions and research centers with several mainly American universities , they used to be called branch campuses So , they offer different degree programs teaching English and provide American style education.
I worked as an English teacher teaching Literature and English for Academic Purposes at the Academic Bridge Program, which functioned as a foundation year facilitating entry into these American universities. There's one French university for graduate studies, but for undergraduate studies, we have several American universities, and I worked in a foundation program preparing students for entry into those universities, and I also worked for several years as an faculty adjunct at Georgetown University, where I'm currently working full time, teaching writing and literature and various other courses. 

[00:21:06] Paul Breen: Okay, well that very definitely is a transnational context, because you've got such a mix of cultures and nationalities there. So, just in terms of the particular context that you work in , . What type of experiences have you had with how the different cultures interact?

[00:21:28] Magda Rostron: I can only describe this experience in superlatives . It has been an absolutely amazing journey. Not always smooth, but that doesn't necessarily take away from the incredible experience that it has been so far. So Education City was created in 1995. And they had this idealistic vision of creating an educational hub where they could bring some of the top Western universities, mainly American universities to open up educational opportunities for young Qatari women. Qatar has a fairly conservative society and so young women were very often not allowed to travel abroad for higher education. So that was one of the reasons , for bringing these various universities into Qatar. 
So apart from Georgetown -this is Georgetown SFS School of Foreign Service offering international affairs, diplomacy, international politics, as degree programs -there is VCU, Virginia Commonwealth University with an art program CMU, Carnegie Mellon University with computers and biological sciences, Northwestern with journalism and communications, and Texas A& M, with various engineering programs, 
So this is a truly international transnational educational hub. The unique features of Education City obviously include the diversity of student population, but also of professors. There are professors and researchers from all over the world. We have professors and students from home campuses coming to visit, coming to stay for a semester, coming to teach. Our students from Georgetown, but also from other universities, go back to their main campuses.
We have access to the so called Global South. And these universities collaborate with various institutions in the Global South. We have a lot of students from various countries in Africa, in Asia, in South America,. So , it kind of has a global mission of Engagements with the world through research, through education, exchanges.
So it has a truly global character and it's situated very conveniently almost at the crossroads between the West and the East, the North and the South, given the character of Qatar itself as a country. With its oil and gas derived wealth very traditional Muslim culture and religious orientation and obviously the Arab connection, Middle East connection with very strong bonds with Europe and the United States.

[00:24:04] Paul Breen: Yeah, it sounds quite interdisciplinary, which is very similar to the previous context that we heard about in China.
[00:24:13] Xiaoqing Bi: Yeah, you mentioned that lots of international students go to that context in Qatar. So I'm just wondering what the main motivations of your Qatari students for studying in a TNE university rather than other traditional Qatari universities or going abroad to study. 

[00:24:32] Magda Rostron: Well, there are still many Qatari students who prefer to study abroad.
And when I was teaching in the Academic Bridge program, preparing students for entry into English language universities, many of our students applied to universities abroad, bypassing Education City, because they wanted that authentic, genuine experience of living abroad, studying abroad. Mostly male students, because there are some female students who go abroad, but numerically obviously men are in majority when it comes to that. There are some of the top ranking universities or programs, if not entire universities in the world. So obviously the motivation here is educational as well as anticipating better prospects in terms of future jobs, future careers. Some of these students, even Qatari students will end up working for various international institutions abroad. That would be probably a minority. Most come back to work in Qatar for different organizations. Qatari students enjoy an unprecedented level of governmental financial support because they are sponsored to study in the universities here in Education City, either through specific ministries, such as Ministry of Education, or through specific companies, such as Qatar Energy, for example, or Qatar Airways and other local companies. 
It's a little different for foreign students because we have two kinds of foreign students. So we have international students coming from abroad. In many cases, if not most cases, they come on scholarships offered either by the universities themselves or Qatar Foundation. And we also have international students who are local. So those are the students who have either lived here with their parents all their lives, or were even born here. They don't necessarily have Qatari passport That's not an easy thing to obtain.
But they in many cases, they are also eligible for support financial aid. And they very often come from various Arab nationalities, who have, for example, left their countries, they're in exile, from Syria, from Iraq and other countries. And they started here, hoping for better employment prospects. Some will go back to their countries unless there is some kind of conflict or war involved . Some will opt to work for international organizations. I personally know students from Afghanistan who ended up in the United States or in Australia, students from Africa who ended up in various countries in Europe.
So, although I think. The initial idea was to educate students here and then facilitate their return to their own countries. For the development of their own countries, and it doesn't always work in this way. I've had a number of Chinese students who have gone either to the United States or other European countries for further studies, but with very often with with this idea in mind that they would be going back to China. 

[00:27:28] Paul Breen: Okay. And I suppose just kind of one last question, we talk a lot about EAP scholarship. So how much opportunity do you have for engaging in scholarship and research in your context? 

[00:27:43] Magda Rostron: The opportunities are here for sure. There's also there's research opportunities provided through Qatar National Research Fund and you can submit a proposal. And if the proposal is accepted, then you will be allocated a specific amount of money or other forms of support so you can conduct your project. Now for me, as an English teacher that focused on literature, education and culture my projects tend to be a lot less expensive and it's usually qualitative studies. I'm working on an article about poetry. So I'm moving a little bit away from education and culture and back to literature, which used to be my primary field of interest. But the opportunities for EAP or any other teaching related research or more theoretical research are absolutely abundant and it just depends on what it is that you want to do and how much time you have on your hands to devote to research and publishing. 
 
[00:28:47] Paul Breen: So, okay. So, thanks very much for that very interesting interview, Magda.

[00:28:53] Magda Rostron: Thank you for inviting me. I hope I answered your questions. 

[00:28:56] Xiaoqing Bi: Before we wrap up, we have a special message for those of you who are particularly interested in the TNE field. We are happy to have the convener of the TNE Special Interest Group who will share insights on what you can expect from this vibrant community. Now, here is their message.

[00:29:21] Liz Wilding: Hi, I'm Liz Wilding from the University of Reading. I'm a professor of EAP with a specialization in transnational education. Along with Joanne Shiel from the University of Leeds, I'm also a co-convener of the BALEAP TNE Special Interest Group. I enjoyed listening to the podcast and I could relate to the experiences and information that the speakers shared. So what do we do? We wanted to create a platform for sharing ideas, expertise, and experiences of EAP provision in TNE settings.
We now have a committee, which is a very relaxed and friendly group, all very keen to keep the conversation going. We host regular online events, and recent examples of these include a workshop on building equitable TNE partnerships, a talk about Chinese students agency in TNHE, a student voices session where TNE students took the lead, Reading Cafe, where we discussed issues on an article focused on some area of TNE.
We'd really love to have new members join us and contribute in almost any way. We have a website and a YouTube channel, which you can find through the BALEAP website, and we will really look forward to seeing you soon.

[00:30:45] Laura Richards: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of All Things EAP. We really hope you've enjoyed it and that you've found something interesting or useful in it. We really want to hear from you as well. So if you'd like to share a comment, suggestion or an insight into something that we've talked about on one of the episodes, please send us an email or voice note at podcast@baleap.org, but you can also get in touch through X, formerly known as Twitter and our YouTube channel, which are both @AllThingsEAP. Thank you again for listening, and we hope that you can join us for the next episode. 
Take care. Bye-bye.