jeremywest&paulpape
 [00:00:00] Welcome to Jeremy Chats with Coaches, episode six. Today I have with me Paul Pape. Hello, Paul. How are you? Hello, Paul. Good. How are you doing today? Not too bad. Not too bad. Whereabouts are you located? I'm in Nebraska, in the United States. Nebraska. I'm from Seattle, United States, but I lived in Australia for the last 19 years.
So how's the weather in Nebraska today? It's it's almost spring. We'll get, we'll give it that. We're just getting out of winter here. The leaves are trying to pop up, but we keep having these cold spills. So just, yeah, so it's not bad, but it's not great. And it's almost autumn for us, and we gotta keep having these hot spells, so let's get into that transcriptory season.
We're not it's not too hot and not too cold. Anyway, paul, let's just start out with can you please tell us a little bit about who you are and what drew you to coaching speaking the kind of consulting that you do yeah, my name is paul pape and for the last 20 [00:01:00] years i've been a designer and fabricator of custom collectibles I have worked with Large companies around the world like Disney, Universal, Nickelodeon plus thousands of people all over the world.
Basically if there's something they can't, it might not be the right time to mention Nickelodeon. Oh, yeah, I always forget about that. I worked on Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, so I, there, there was nothing going on there yeah, no. That's a good hot take on that one, boss.
Sorry to stop your stream. Sorry to stop your stream there. Go on. Yeah. Yeah. So for the last 20 years, I've worked with companies like Disney and Universal and other places. No call myself Santa Claus for nerds, because basically if there's something that you want that you can't find anywhere, I'm the guy who can make it for you.
And Yeah. Yeah. It's a lot of fun. And then for the last six years, I've been a streamer on Twitch which has helped me reach out to a lot more people. And then from that, I learned that there was a lot of creatives out there who were trying to figure out how best to make it in this business.
And [00:02:00] I'm a big advocate for getting rid of the starving artist trope. And so I hate that term. And I think it's really important that people can Work against that. And I basically have I coach people and I say it's creatives, companies and corporations on how best to utilize their creative outlets to be profitable and give space for those who need it and ownership of creative paths and then to actually make it as a successful artist, that's really good.
When you talk about When you talk about the starving artist trope, my ex wife has written a novel that I think is fantastic and that the world needs to see, but by the time she was on the fourth draft of it, she just got sick of it halfway through and so much had changed that she just laid it down and it's just been lying there for years and I don't know that she'll ever pick it up again and it made me think How many millions of artworks are out there that nobody ever, almost nobody ever sees because the artist doesn't put it [00:03:00] out?
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I think a lot of it is because the struggle from creation of an idea to, tangible, Medium is it's a challenge for a lot of people. It's a labor of love or it's a labor of passion. And I find that with a lot of creatives that it's, it is so emotionally draining.
And then to have to go back and have somebody, first off critique it, like it from a writer's perspective, you're going through drafts and somebody is this needs to be cleaned up and that needs to be cleaned up. And as the writer themselves are like this is my voice. This is that. And they forget about the technical aspects of it so much as they do.
Just the passionate art part of it. And yeah, I definitely see how that fell by the wayside. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. And it'd just be amazing, I think, to find all those things, all those artworks of whatever type that are out there that, sometimes after the death of someone famous, we were able to find some more of their stuff that they never thought was good enough to put out.
And it's just [00:04:00] so amazing because everyone seems to be their own harshest critic. Artists often think it's not good enough to put out where it's, Lots of people would love what they've made. You'd be surprised how many people come to me after their loved one has passed away to say, Hey, is there a way that we can turn this?
Like my, even my own grandmother, we released three books that she had written that she thought was never good enough. And we put them in a print and we've done audio books for them and it's sold really well. It's just you're a hundred percent correct. People are their own worst. Yeah, that actually it makes me think now i'm thinking there's this trope I guess that with artists like picasso and whatever that They're never rich and famous until they're dead.
And I've always thought that was because they had such trouble marketing, but I've just thought maybe they'd never even tried to put those out. While they're alive, cause they didn't think they're good enough. So anyway, a bit of a tangent, but what would you say is the core philosophy behind your coaching and what you do with people?
[00:05:00] Is my core philosophy is that every creative, and when I say creative, I don't necessarily mean artists. It's just basically anybody who has a passion for the thing that they do. I know enough computer programmers or chefs, or just, honestly, even a trash collection people, if they're great enough at their job, there's a, they are creative at it.
They've basically created ownership of it. And so I just want to make sure everybody understands it's not just artists that I'm talking to here, but my core philosophy is that. As a creative we are, I like to call 'em soul ambassadors. We are the ones that help humanity to, refresh or recharge after a long day of doing stuff that we don't find terribly refreshing for the soul.
And so for me it is empowering creatives on an individual basis so that they understand their worth in our society as well as helping. Coach or basically it's consult companies on understanding that giving a little bit more room for creatives to take ownership of their jobs, [00:06:00] then they are more fulfilled as artists or as creatives within that.
And then they they get more fulfillment out of the job, even though, we can't necessarily pay everybody what they think they might be worth, but at least we can give them enough ownership that they feel responsible for the work that they're putting out. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. And I would just recommend at the end of this show, we'll talk about a bit about how to how to find you, but I just put out there right now on paulpate.
it I've just watched a couple of videos that you've got up there and the one is really touching the one where you talk about how actually maybe I'll have you tell the story if you want to, about the the young boy who was Quite ill and saw you on YouTube and yeah yeah, so I had a father reach out to me and it was really, it's timing is everything in every job.
And I had just actually gotten burned from a couple who had said that their child was dying of cancer and they wanted this. It was basically the [00:07:00] beauty and the beast floating rose from the movie. They wanted that as a remembrance for her, but they wanted her to have it before she passed. And so I had rushed it to get it to them.
I had paid a lot of money to. Have it finished. And then I found out that they had lied. There was no child at all. And right after I found that out, I was contacted by another father who said that his son had drowned. And after six minutes, they had brought him back, but he had a reputable brain damage.
And, of course, I had just gotten burned out of over two grand worth of work. And so I was like, yeah, prove it to me, man. And oddly enough, he did, he had everything there to back it up. And you feel, I felt really guilty about it after the fact. And he basically told me that his son he's stuck as a six year old and a four or six year old.
I don't remember exactly off the top of my head. I think it was six years old. And, but his favorite movie was despicable me before he had the accident. And so he had become enamored with this book that the main character grew, creates called one big unicorn. And it's a [00:08:00] story that he hand wrote in the movie.
And he says to his adoptive daughters and he puts his nose through it to make the unicorn horn. And it's a pretty funny, but touching moment in the movie. And this boy had become so enamored with it. And it's the only thing from the movie that was never produced. There's a lot of toys and they actually came up with, Other books that are in the movie, but this one was not there because it's only six pages long.
And so the father had asked if I was able to if I was able to recreate it for him. So I did. And knowing that the boy would be. Using it a lot. I actually created two for him, and I also created him in such a way that it could actually be used a lot. It could be read over and over again without being damaged.
But I know that, I've got three boys of my own, and I know once they get attached to something, it becomes love to the point of falling apart. So I just wanted to make sure that he had a second copy in case it ever got to that point. And yeah, it was really touching. They filmed Their son opening this package and you could see the absolute delight and love in the kid's eyes and it was really impressive and the mom [00:09:00] actually told me on the video, she said, your gift changes lives.
And that was a really big turning point for me as a creator to know that, as somebody once told me that your ordinary is everyone else's extraordinary. You don't recognize how your gift impacts people because to you, it's your everyday life. But to other people, they don't, they recognize it as magic.
And so I think for that family, I gave them magic when they needed it most. And and it really helped bring me back one from being burned from the couple that, that, or the person who lied to me, but then also to see that, even though bad things may happen in this, especially in this line of work, creativity really does change people's lives.
It gives them magic when they need it. Yeah, so it gave you back some of that feeling you probably had at the very beginning of your creative work and and then showed you also for your clients that you can, do you [00:10:00] have a. You have that story. Do you have any other ways to impress upon clients just how valuable their gifts are?
Absolutely. Pretty much anything that, again, that, that quote, your ordinary is someone else's extraordinary. And it is a hundred percent true. I've helped Hundreds of couples with proposals and I personalize them. So I've created nerd based or theme based sports based proposals that would amaze people.
And my wife says that what I like to do is my artwork captures memories. It makes memories tangible. And, I've done urns for the deceased for like I created a man's house that he absolutely loved this house and he maintained it forever. And when he passed, he was cremated, but they wanted a special urn.
So I actually recreated the house. That he loves so much as an urn. And they have that in their home forever. It's a memorial for them, but it's also very personalized. And I think that the ability to do that for anyone and to be versatile. If I actually, I've got one sitting on my desk right now.
I have a [00:11:00] fireman, a firefighter who had passed away and the family asked if I could recreate their favorite photo of him and it's him and his attire and he's looking over his shoulder at him and So I just, I've actually got it here as a memorial for them as well. And it's just about making the memories tangible for them so that they have that.
And I think that most creators, we don't recognize how big of an impact something like that can be, how we can take a suggestion or even if we're not even creating it as a commission, but we're just creating art and hoping somebody relates to it. The fact that it can. evoke an emotional response from somebody and give them joy or give them the ability to escape.
I think it's utterly important that we do that. And I think everybody's got the capacity to do it in some regard. Yeah. The amazing thing about it being commissioned work is you get to see the joy that it brings to the people. Whereas when you put it out there you get to see sometimes, but there would be so many people affected by your creativity that you [00:12:00] never even hear anything about.
So it's pretty special, to, to be able to see that. Hear the story and see the actual joy in the people's eyes. Absolutely. It is nice. And I actually do the same thing for corporations and stuff. When I say I work for like Disney or Universal, I do a lot of work for The Tonight Show with Jimmy Fallon.
And they will call me up and just ask me to do the wildest, wackiest stuff. I've created custom action figures for Disney. Yeah, Dwayne, the Rock Johnson, I've done singing, talking robots, but it's really interesting because they just have these ideas. They have a writer's room where these people just come up with these like really crazy skits and they're like we'd love to do this, but it's got this super specific thing that we don't know how to even begin to imagine how to create it.
And they're like, just call up Paul and see what he can come up with. And it's. It's always something that, to me, I love the challenge of it, but it's also it's really cool to be able to make these fantastical ideas that just people just come up with into a reality. Please tell me that you designed the love toilet on the [00:13:00] SNL commercial sketch.
Sadly no, they've got to think of a real product. Do you have any idea what I'm talking about? I do it. You know what I'm talking about? Yeah. Yep. So for listeners, just look it up on YouTube. Sarah and live love toilet. It's yeah, I don't, I won't ruin it. Just look it up. How do you, when you're working with, A creative, how do you help them really unlock their potential, especially if they don't see it themselves?
I think a big part of it, first off is, and it sounds really boring, but I think the best place to start is sitting them down and explaining to them how to figure out what to charge. It's the biggest stumbling block for most creatives. But I use a formula and it's really interesting when you take something as intangible as talent.
And you give it a mathematical equation. It really sets people's it sets their mind to ease a lot, especially with creatives, because then they see it's, it is finite. And like I said, I don't like the starving artist trope and I've had enough [00:14:00] customers over the years or clients that want to haggle with me.
And I'm a big proponent of, I can't haggle with you at your day job. You can't haggle with me at mine. And a lot of artists are willing to put their Basically willing to put their time negate that is, is to how much it's worth and time and experiences is worth so much. And so really helping them to understand that their skill set has a finite.
Cost to it that needs to be expressed in the pricing of their work, I think is the first place to start. And that really, once they see that, then they understand that they do have value and that value is a huge step for them to be able to begin the journey of actually being prosperous in this type of field, in this field.
Yeah because I think for almost everybody selling yourself is the most difficult thing to sell and when you're creative that creativity is a part of yourself so you're really are selling yourself and it's, as you said, it's usually your ordinary so it really doesn't seem like it's worth that much to you.
Whereas, because it's [00:15:00] other people's extraordinary, it's worth multiples of what you think it's worth as an individual usually. Absolutely. And I think a lot of it, you're always going to, no matter how skilled you are, you're always going to encounter people who will try to devalue your work and they usually use it by saying things like Hey, my kid could make something like that.
Why are you charging so much for it? Or I'll just do that at home myself. And that's really just to help you belittle it a little bit. Yeah, exactly. Go ahead. Yeah. Try it. And when you're done, come back and I'll tell you the real thing. And yeah, it's. It is a, it's a weird mindset that you have to get into because this is a business.
Don't get me wrong. I love doing the art and I love watching artists come into their own, but it is a business. We got to pay bills. And, I think there's a mentality that humanity, not so much in Europe, I've found, but a lot in like the States. There's a mentality that we have formed around art that because much like clergy, because you're closer to a kind of God you have this ability that other people are [00:16:00] lacking that should be your payment.
And that, that you are less than because you have this ability to do something that others don't. Whereas I'm the opposite. I'm like, because I have that ability, we should be. Highlighting as we should be paying more, much like paying teachers more, we are, contributing something to society, which I think is astronomically more important than a lot of the things that are out there.
And so it, it should be reflected and I hate that it always comes down to money, but unfortunately, the world spins on a dime. And so it's really hard to get away from that as a metric for success, but sadly, it's hard. It's hard. I feel like the best art is the art that's done for its own sake.
And yet if the artist isn't getting paid for their art, then they're not going to have nearly the amount of time to do the art that that they will if they're getting paid properly. Absolutely. And I'm not to, I'm not downgrading anybody who arts for a hobby, it's their release.
I think that's as important as somebody who's pursuing, something [00:17:00] creative as a full time career. We all need an outlet. We all, if you're not creating art you're consuming it in some form or another by watching movies, listening to music, television, books, you name it video games, we're all consuming that.
And that just, and that's why I say like a soul ambassadors because we, you need that. Recharge after whatever it is, to take your mind off of the mundane the, how mundane the world is. And I think that it's important that we all have that release and we get it one way or the other, either by consumption or creation.
And I think it's really important that we embrace that just not by belittling the effort. Yeah. I would agree in my own life. It's not only, I wouldn't even just call it escapism. I feel like when I really get into a novel or especially a series of novels, it's like visiting another realm or another dimension or something.
During COVID, [00:18:00] one time when a lockdown happened where I live I had booked. Because I'm self employed, I put a vacation into my calendar every three months and try to enforce that on myself. And generally I go somewhere, but because of COVID, I wasn't allowed to go anywhere. So I I picked up a series of books by Ursula Le Guin and entered her reality in those books.
And I, yes, I think it's much yeah, that kind of entertainment and dreams and they're all different. We can have additional lives within those creative elements. Yeah, and it's great to have those. I'm a huge, I love reading. I love audio books as well. My background is in theater.
And so the performance aspect is there and I read to my children. That. I think my son right now, he's in elementary school. And so they they ask that you write down how much you read to them. And I think we just turned in March's month and we read over 475 minutes within the course of the month of just stories to our children.
And I think it's [00:19:00] really important for them because of that escapism. One, it helps foster imagination and we all need more in our world. But it also, yeah it's escapism isn't the right word, but it does allow you to do travel. And it allows you to explore and do all the things that humanity really wants to do without having to leave the confines of your home.
That's why video gaming is so much fun because you really get to participate in the game world. I always said if you could ever create a VR headset. Yeah, like I love my VR and I'm like, if I could ever run through Azeroth, I'd be on my treadmill all the day, all the time with my headset on just running through the world of Warcraft, I, cause I think that would be so beautiful.
In a virtual reality situation. We're getting, I'm sure that's coming soon. Yeah. Yeah. That's actually where my brother works at meta in the section or AR now, augmented reality right? Yeah, it's pretty cool. And he started because I told you I'm from America, but I've lived in Australia for 19 years in Japan for two [00:20:00] years before that.
But all of my family still lives in America, and my brother said specifically when he left Microsoft to go to Meta. To work in VR that was specifically so that he can make it so that I can come to the family Christmas from the comfort of my own home in Australia by just sticking on a VR headset and stepping into the living room.
So hopefully he's got that coming very soon. That would be awesome. I saw a Microsoft ad for that like 10 years ago, and it looked like they already had it, but clearly they didn't because they would have released it during COVID and that would have been a lot better than just talking to people over zoom.
Oh, absolutely. I think nothing. Yeah it's really weird. We have the sites like I use zoom a lot in the speaking world and it there's such a weird and on Twitch, but there's such a weird disconnect when talking to a camera and a flat screen than there is to actually being somewhere in person. And as much as we're down on apples augmented reality headset, yeah.
The ability to communicate virtually, have people walk [00:21:00] into your space. Even though it's still in its infancy, I think it's very interesting to be at that human condition to see somebody more tangible. Yep. Yeah. I don't remember which one's the red pill and which one's the blue pill, but if I was really in the matrix, let me just stay there.
Like ready player one. That's the opposite. Everyone lives. Everyone chooses to go live in the virtual world. So what are some challenges that your clients face and how do you guide them through those obstacles? A lot of the challenges, like I said before, is figuring out how what to pay, but then also setting up and advertise, like finding your market is probably is up there.
Probably number two, as far as once we figure out what you're worth. The great thing about that is, is it's a matter of perspective. Now, with the Internet age, We are a big world, but we're a tiny planet. And with 8 billion people on this planet, the good news is you only really need 10 super fans or a hundred regular fans.
And those fans don't need to be the same people forever. [00:22:00] You can nurture, as long as you've got 10 people who are your super fans are basically going to love everything that you do. And then tell everybody about it. You can create a network of advertising that is very specialized to the work that you do, and everybody can find their niche online.
It's a. That's the great thing about the internet. And as long as you're willing to ship things anywhere in the world, then, like possibilities are endless. And so it's for marketing, it's a lot better to From a creator's point of view to target specific people who are interested in exactly what you want, then they try the, what I like to call the shotgun approach or the spray and pray, and just put it out there everywhere and hope that people really, that somebody latches onto it.
It's better to focus in because we all have a voice and with anything that we're creating, we're trying to do something very specific. And to a message that we're trying to get out there through our work. And so if, as long as you can say what that is and in my coaching sessions, I talk a lot about your core message and it's really what it is that you're trying to [00:23:00] say.
And I tell them that, we're we live in seasons, like humanity is, every human being goes through various seasons. I don't expect anybody to have a core message that goes through their entire life. That's why a lot of artists are like, Oh, they were in their blue period, or this is their lilies phase or whatever.
We just have a message that we're trying to get through at that time. And if you're clear on it, then it really helps to focus down your intention. And then it's really easy to find people who are interested in that intention. Alright, so I'll turn, no go ahead. Oh no, you had a question, I was just whambling.
I was just gonna say I'll turn your coaching back around on you, what's your core message? My core message, it depends on what I'm doing. If if it is my art itself, it is literally creating tangible memories. That is in, in, it's all on an individual basis. I want to make sure that your memories become tangible In the most deeply meaning way for you.
So when you look at something that I have created for you, I want you to, I want it to evoke a very specific memory. That's from my art [00:24:00] perspective. From my coaching perspective, my core message is I want for individuals, it is for them to. To truly understand their worth as a creator and to know that they can be successful.
And then for companies and corporations, it's to elevate them and understanding the value of creativity and creative solutions within their businesses. Wonderful. So then I guess that's the big picture. Now, can you explain the process of setting goals with your clients and how you ensure that they stay accountable to those goals?
That's the easiest thing with artists. Goals are fairly easy to basically when you're setting goals for an artist, what I like to ask them is, that you're trying to achieve that usually comes down to their core message? What is the message that you're trying to get out there?
And then how do you. How do you see that success? What does that success mean to you? And that usually comes in the form of some kind of tangibility as well. I've got a comic book creator [00:25:00] who he's a writer for comic books. He's one of my clients one of my clients. And he I said, what is this thing?
What is your goal for this and his was he wants to have an actual comic book. He wants to publish a comic book. And so that was a really easy goal for us to set up. We gave him a specific timeframe and then there has to be checks and balances because when you're, especially as an artist and independent artist, but you're working in collaboration with someone else, he's a writer, but he needs a And an artist to actually draw the images, then the anchor, and then you need a publisher.
There's checkpoints that have to be met during the process and missing out on those checkpoints slows down the entire process. It's much like writing, your ex wife, writing her book. And you get to a draft. Then it's got to go to an editor. They got to come back. It's got to redraft and all that.
And that, and there's a process to it. And if you miss steps, then it throws off the entire works. The best way for me that I find to keep people on task is by giving them homework, but then there's a monetary value to it. I don't know if you're college educated, [00:26:00] but when I went to college, I made myself break down what the.
Individual class cost me. And so if I skipped out on class, I knew that I was throwing away X amount of money. And when I went to school, it was like almost 175 an hour. And if I didn't go, because I didn't feel like it, I was literally 175. I went to school a long time ago. I think right now it'd be almost like four times that much at the same university, but yeah.
So I think that's And once you put that into perspective for them, so if you're paying for my coaching, I'm, I'll come to every coaching session and you'll meet me there. But if you don't do the work, then you're literally just burning money. I'm happy to, when I was in college, I was a college professor for a while and I definitely had people, students that come in and they do that.
And I'm like, you don't understand. You just, I'm getting paid regardless. So you're just literally throwing away your own money. And I just, Especially nowadays, money is so tight with everybody because everything is so [00:27:00] expensive. It's just really important that they have that perspective. And I, again, I really hate going back to everything revolves around money, but it's, and sadly it's just, it is such a great motivator or metric.
I just, yeah. Just one of those that is I do love it. That's I'll just break in with a little tangent. I so I have two bachelor degrees start. I did two thirds of a master's degree and didn't finish that but My second bachelor degree I started at 34 years old and there were about two rows of mature age students in the front who were actually interested in learning and about 30 rows of people who had just come from high school that just wanted to know what was going to be on the test.
And every time someone asked, is that going to be on the test? I was just like, is this, did Aristotle and Socrates students raise their hand and say, Oh, Socrates is this going to be on the test? But I was planning to be a professor and I ended, but I ended up I haven't done a PhD yet, but I thought, I don't know how long the university would let me get away with this before I was fired.
Maybe I have to [00:28:00] wait till I have tenure, but I would love to come in on day one and say, Hey, look, if you're just here to find out what's going to be on the test, I've recorded. Lectures that just cover what's going to be on the test to stay home and listen to that whenever you want. We're going to go off on lots of tangents here.
We're going to answer questions. I have nothing to do with anything that's going to be on the test. We're going to just delve into curiosity. So if there's only 4 of you interested in that, I'd rather have 4 of you here than 200 other people that are not interested. Absolutely. Interrupting little chats behind the anyway, it was a very good because I was the 1st I was 17 and I just wanted the piece of paper.
So I've had both perspectives and sadly, I think that with our education system anymore is we are test based and, it is about the grade that is the metric that they use to, you are not successful. When I was teaching college, I used to think. Tell everybody I said, look, when you start this class, you have an F amount of knowledge in this.
And then if you do [00:29:00] just the bare minimum, you're going to graduate with a C. And we've gotten to the point that everyone, if you do the bare minimum, you get an a, and it's incorrect. A is an above average amount of information. And so I think it's a, it's just where we're at with society is just how, how the schools are measuring education.
Whereas as you said, with continuing ed, when you had the older students there, they're like no. I understand that it's not necessarily about what the grade is. It's the knowledge that I can grab from. From the instructor. What can I do with that information and how that can better be in the long run?
Yeah, I think, but I love the either way, if you're just trying to get the piece of paper with the highest marks, the highest grades or you're really there for the knowledge, I think either way you're translating it into how much money it's costing you is good. Although when. To be honest, myself, when on student loans, I don't I didn't think about any of that because it's all, you paid sometime in the future.
And now, future me, it's you're dealing with those [00:30:00] debts, now I care. Future you is really mad that you didn't pay attention. That's right. Yep. But you have to, that's why everyone has to learn the hard way, isn't it? You can't, anyway, although you don't, if you hire a coach, you can learn from their mistakes and get there a lot faster.
But I also feel that nobody learns from doing something correct. When was the last time you did something absolutely correct? And you went, wow, that was a learning experience. You don't, it's when you, Catastrophically fail you, but you don't get bogged down in the failure. I think that's when we learn that best.
And those people who can overcome that failure, quickest. And recognize that it's not necessarily a failure, but that there's something to be learned in failing is they're the ones who are the most successful. Whether it's a true, I was just going to bring up the same one. I was going to say whether it's a true story or apocryphal one that Edison after each, go ahead.
Yeah. After every fit, he said, I didn't fail. I just learned 10, 000 ways of how not to do it. And then I found [00:31:00] Tesla's design and did it. There's those who do, and those who don't steal. Yeah, it's awesome. A couple more questions and then I'll let you go. But what would see, what would be your strategy, particularly with creatives go through.
Ups and downs as far as how much inspiration they have When you have a client that has self doubt or they have a lack of motivation. What's your strategy for helping them overcome that? So my background is education I love to learn I recently learned that the reason I like to learn is because I had a really abusive childhood.
And so I used to escape to school to learn about these things. And so education became like my church. And to answer your question, the best way to do it is homework and accountability. Because I find that if you give somebody a task and whether it be homework from a coach or a commission that somebody has paid you [00:32:00] to do the deadline, the impending doom of someone holding you accountable is the best motivator to get you out of a slump.
The other thing is. Distraction I find that sometimes we you can't read the label from inside the bottle and what happens, especially in a creative environment is that you get so focused on what you're doing that you can't, you forget your you forget your core, you forget what you're trying to do and sometimes it's best to take a to take a 180 degree do something completely different.
If you're used to painting, I recommend try woodworking or sculpting or go bowling, something that's so out of the ordinary for you that when you come back to it, you've got fresh eyes and that usually helps to motivate. So between having accountability or just stepping away from it and coming back to it, those two things usually help get people out of our slums.
Yeah, I can attest to both of those. I have my own coach and there's something about, we're meeting on Thursday. It's Wednesday. I haven't done what I [00:33:00] said I was going to do and I get it done. Not everybody does. And there's, they're wasting their money as you say on that hour a week or whatever that they have with their coach.
But it works for me. And then the second one I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that, Often our unconscious is actually far more creative than our conscious. And when we get, when we're thinking about it consciously, we lose that. And then when you go off and do something else, you're still working on it.
It's just unconscious and you come back and it just seems to flow. Yeah, absolutely. It's like that, that infuriating moment as a creative, when you're working on something and then somebody who has absolutely nothing to do with it, walks in and goes have you tried thinking about this? And you're like, yeah.
Oh my God. Why didn't I think of that? It's because it's, yeah, it's because you're in the bottle. You don't see it. And it's that outside perspective. And that's actually a lot of what my coaching or consulting business is I don't come from a corporate background. I come from an art background.
And so when I come into a company or corporation and they're like we're stuck, we've [00:34:00] got this problem. I'm always like, have you tried this? And they're like, I love seeing the expression on a room full of executives faces when they're looking at me. And then their mouths fall open.
They're like, why didn't we think of that? And it's because you're too close to it. And it's the same thing with individuals. It's funny, that seems to happen with inventions as well, though, as soon as something new is invented, I'm like, it's so obvious, why did nobody come up with that thousands of years ago?
It's that whole necessity is the mother of invention thing. Yeah. Yeah that's the only reason I've been as creative as I've been, because you're talking about how creativity isn't just our and yeah, whenever I've created something, it was mostly even this podcast, it's mostly because I want it to exist and it's nobody else is doing it, so I guess I am, yeah, and that's really what it takes.
There's a lot of people who don't believe, I'm sorry to keep rattling on here, but I think it's important that people understand that. Yeah, is that when you [00:35:00] are, when you find that need embrace it Mike, my coach would call that a divine doorway that God or the universe is speaking through you to say, Hey, and what's funny is if you ignore it, it'll still come back.
It comes back over and over again. And it's someone's trying to tell you something, you should listen to it instead of ignoring it. And I think that it's important so that if you do as a creative, as any kind of person, if you've got an idea Try to put it to fruition. It may not make you millions, but it may make your life and a few other people's lives a little bit better.
And I think that's important. We don't ignore that, but we embrace it. It may stop you from falling off a roof and nearly dying. I'm in the hospital. I'm in the hospital right now. Recover. I've got 18 broken bones in my back from falling off. My roof setting up satellite on the roof and my coach Yeah, so what but this podcast I have been saying that I was going to be making this podcast for years But all of my work time has been well, I have to Do work [00:36:00] that's making me money now.
I don't have time to do this creative thing. Excuse me And so when I was talking to my coach about this and how I actually have started this now and you know Recorded six episodes while in hospital She said it was the story of the feather the brick and the truck which I had never heard. Have you heard it?
I have not. See, when I told her I'd never heard of it, she was like, really? You haven't? And, but everybody that I've mentioned to has said they haven't heard of it. But I did look it up. It's a thing. So basically the universe will tickle you with a feather and say, here's an idea. And if you ignore that, Then a bit later on, it will throw a brick at you like, for example, losing my job on my daughter's birthday last year in October, but no, I just went out and found another job.
And then here I am having fallen off a roof and the doctor says most people that fall from that hide. I don't ever see because they die, but the ones that I do see are in a wheelchair and many of them can't even talk and I don't seem to have any. Permanent [00:37:00] injuries, but it has pushed me into finally doing something that i've been talking about doing for years.
So don't ignore the feather guys Right the divine doorway becomes a truck apparently Take the door. It's a lot easier Yeah, all right, so Last question is not more of a summing up question. How do you maintain a balance? Then once you've helped your clients get past any self doubt and you've got goals and they're working through the motivation, how do you maintain a balance between pushing clients to their limits?
And ensuring that they don't burn out. Ah, okay. So the best way to approach that from my perspective is that burnout typically happens when you're overworked and underappreciated. I've seen people go into a few states doing something creative, lost, complete track of time, and not necessarily if you've ever seen anybody like speed run a video game, when it just comes out, it's I'm setting the whole weekend aside.
I'm going to get this game [00:38:00] done. It's that same thing that they, they'll forget to eat, they'll forget to sleep. They'll do all these things because they have the motivation to do it. It's when we are forcing ourselves to push through something. That's when we get to that burnout phase or we're underappreciated for the work that we're doing.
That's something that I counter a lot with people who are working in corporate that they are underappreciated and yet tasked to constantly be creative. And it's hurt. It hurts them because they don't feel, be The appreciation within the work. And so the best way to do it is one, find the motivation to do it.
If you're motivated enough to do it, then you're not going to burn out because you've got something that's driving you in whatever that carrot needs to be on the end of that stick, let that be it. And sometimes it's money. Sometimes it's gratitude or appreciation. Sometimes it's a show that they're going to have to put up.
There's a lot of things that can go into that. And really that's coming down to a core message or speaking with the client and really understanding where they're coming from. But so [00:39:00] besides having motivation, I think it's also important that the end goal is Never that it's never finished.
Creatives have a tendency to never be satisfied with the end. And so it's never done. Yeah, my background, like I said, was in theater. And we have this saying that the show is going to go up. The show is going to come down. It doesn't matter. Yeah, you're up against the deadline. That show is going to go up.
So we would love to sit and finagle and tweak our project until the end. Until the end of time, but we know that the show curtain is going to rise and the show has got to be done. So you've just got to get it to a point that you're happy with it, get it done. You can always come back to it. And the second, third, fourth, fifth iteration can always be better, but you got to give yourself a point where you can stop and then say it's done for now.
And I think that really helps with the burnout. So deadlines is a, is another one. It's when I'm working with clients [00:40:00] from my, with my own work. A lot of times they're up against, Hey, I want to propose on the specific date or I've got a wedding on this date or a birthday, or we're doing a celebration of life on this date.
I need to have the thing in hand. I could always keep tweaking the thing to make it better and whatnot, but I'm up against a hard deadline. So it's okay, I'm going to get to this point. I'm happy with it. Could it be better? Always, but I'm happy with it enough that I can get the work out and the client will be happy with it.
But maybe the next version will have a little bit of tweak to it and make a little bit better. So it's always, it's either deadlines or motivation are usually the best way to get out of it. Yeah. And I think that's really good to think about version numbers. That's why software always has version numbers.
It's never complete. So just a couple of last questions. These ones are just to make sure that we haven't missed anything. So if your answer is no, that's perfectly fine. But if you have something to say to it, then that's great too. So 1st, 1 is. Is there anything that we started talking about that you didn't get to say as much as you wanted because we had it off in a different direction, but it took a little [00:41:00] bit of a tangent?
I'm known as being completely tangential myself. If there wasn't, if there was something that I'm I honestly, my brain works like a I'm left handed. And so everybody always says that, it's, I use creative spark and I just meander down whatever paths there are, if I'm missing something or if I didn't get anything, it's your listening audience.
That's going to let me know. And I'm more than welcome to help elaborate whatever might come up. If anybody's listening to this and you're like, Oh, I really wish you would have finished that thought, reach out to me. I'm happy to elaborate more on that. Fantastic. And last one is. Is there anything about you, your philosophy, and your work that didn't even come up that you think would be a glaring omission in a discussion or a review of Paul's paper?
I think the biggest one if I could give anybody some advice for this life it's to bend, not break. Don't be so rigid in your thought process that you're not able to bend. Because rigidity always leads to pain. And so [00:42:00] if you find yourself in a situation in which things are just not working, find out why the why is typically because you're unmoving.
And as much as we like to say, we're, we want to be strong and un, unyielding to all of the crap that's dealt to us. I think it's important that we have the ability to bend. And if you embrace that. As a philosophy in life, you'll find that there's a lot less hurt in the world and you're able to succeed a lot more because in your bending, you'll have doorways and windows that open to you that you're unaware of.
So that would be a big one. And then secondly, I'd say never stop learning. Education, I know it was my escape, but it is such an important thing for people to embrace. You don't need to learn how you learned in school. If you are not a fan of the education system, that's fine. Find something that you are interested in learning and learn the heck out of it.
I think it's really important that [00:43:00] you become the expert of your own life. That's the whole point of this is, if you let everyone else learn the Educate you, then you're only learning what they're willing to give you. The only thing that somebody can't take away from you is your knowledge. And so learn, find something that you're interested in, find out everything about it.
And you'd be surprised what that does for your life and for your outlook. The world is huge and there's so much to do. And then everything outside the world is even bigger. And we just are barely scratching the surface of all of that. And there's still so much more to learn. In it, and you just enrich yourself so much more by, by education.
Yay. You are describing the client that Evie Seuss talked about in episode one, whom came up with the name for herself, the Curious Questioner. Ah, nice. Everybody should be a curious questioner. It's terrible. Thank you very much for coming on. There's a couple of main reasons for this show.
Number 1 is [00:44:00] for anybody that's interested in self development to listen for free and glean any information that can from all different kinds of coaches. And that's especially for anybody that maybe already has a coach or isn't ready for one yet. But it's also so that people can meet all different kinds of coaches.
And if 1 of them speaks to them, and they're like, I need that guy in my life. For example, if someone's thinking, I need Paul Pape helping me move forward, how would they get in contact with you? How would they find you? As my philosophy is about education and bending, not breaking, I tell everybody that you need to go out there and Paul Pape it.
And that is actually my website. It is paulpape. it. So Paul Pape it, you can reach out to me there. If you're interested in the art or the artwork that I do, I have another website, which is paulpapedesigns. com and you can find any of my work there. And honestly, if you can't, if you can't remember one or the other, you can reach out to me for either in both places, but yeah, just Paul Papett, if you want to [00:45:00] know more, That's fantastic.
I Google it, Paul Papett. There's a listener has sent in a. I had a random thought about something creatives could do to get the word out on their stuff after the creative creates like an interview or a podcast. or anything that takes hours to get through. For them or someone they know to make high quality clips those 15 second clips on YouTube, and just basically flood the social medias with those clips.
Cause the high quotables, I think, can get people interested in the whole product. And that's just my marketing scheme for virality.
 Actually, I'd like to, okay, that is something that I actually teach in the coaching sessions that I have is marketability. Yeah, I think that was Vin P Tran, who was who was actually listening here. And I think that is, It's a good idea to create those clips. Don't flood it.[00:46:00] 
There's actually, I work with people who are in the back end of YouTube and stuff. Don't flood the internet with it because it actually they will mark you as spam. The best approach to getting your work out there is two clips of five minutes or less or two videos of five minutes or less on YouTube.
And then you can create dailies if you want to talk about it. It's a smart idea to show process though. Process people eat that up because again, you're ordinary is somebody else's extraordinary. They don't understand how you came up with the thing that you made. And so to show process videos while you're making whatever it is that you're creating, I think is very important.
I look at coding as it's a foreign language to me. So when somebody is doing coding to me, it's like them being in the matrix. I don't understand it, but I love to watch it because they're writing in a foreign language that, them and only other computers can understand. And I think it's very important.
So even watching something like that process is really interesting to some people. And again, you don't need to entice Millions of people. You only really need to have your core followers. 
Jeremy: Yeah. And [00:47:00] actually, I'm going to throw in my first little ad here. On jeremywest. net, there's anything that I've got affiliate deals with, but one particular thing descript. It's fantastic editing software for both. I'll use it for this podcast, for video, whatever it gives you a transcript as soon as you load up Your audio or video and all you have to do is move the words around or you can even add words and you can delete all the and all that kind of stuff.
It's my brother uses it all the time to talk process. So he just speaks the process as he does the stuff, and then he finds that he repeats himself a lot, he just deletes all the, he just leaves the one that's the best explanation, and it takes, yeah, it takes a couple of minutes to edit, and it's really fantastic.
So JeremyWest. net, you can find a link to Descript. So that's it, Paul, thank you very much for your time today. Thank you. I will talk to you again soon. Excellent. Thank you, Jeremy. I appreciate it.